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Post by yanmacca on Apr 6, 2019 14:02:23 GMT
Hi Mac, the military brigade will be along soon to give their answers, but if you want my opinion, if they moved inside Cedar, then they could have been in columns of twos. If they kept to the high ground then maybe columns of fours and maybe not all in line but in some kind of battalion formation. Martini mentions something about formations, so I will post his words; Did not see Indians on ridge, when Custer separated from Reno. Says that before Custer reached high ridge he marched in columns of twos with gray horses in center of column.
Martin says Custer's trail passed along where Reno retreated to. Then Custer halted command on the high ridge about 10 minutes, and officers looked at village through glasses. Saw children and dogs playing among the tepees but no warriors or horses except few loose ponies grazing around. There was then a discussion among the officers as to where the warriors might be and someone suggested that they might be buffalo hunting, recalling that they had seen skinned buffalo along the trail on June 24.
Then command "Attention" "Fours right" "Column right" "March" was given and command went forward down off the hill and then "Column left" and whole command passed down ravine toward dry creek.
After he was ordered back with the note, started back on trail before got up the hill (that is up to high point where whole command had halted) he heard heavy firing in the direction of his right. It might also have been Reno's fire which he heard as that would have been to his right. He afterward supposed was at Ford B. After this he met Boston Custer going to join the command.
When Martin got to top of ridge he looked down in village and saw Indians charging like swarm of bees toward the ford, waving buffalo hides. At the same time he saw Custer retreating up the open country in the direction of the battlefield.
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Post by quincannon on Apr 6, 2019 17:24:46 GMT
One member of the 'military brigade" says that these are not Martini's words. They are someone else telling you what Martini supposedly said.
"Supposedly" in dealing with the LBH means that the words are filtered through someone, and that is someone probably with an agenda. Sounds very much like our old friend Camp in this instance. Look at the structure of what you posted again Ian. These people, the potentates, Camp and others are like the Cardinals, Bishops, and Priests of the RC Church, paternal, who want to do all your thinking for you. The fact they mean well is irrelevant. Don't let them do it.
Cedar Coulee: The most probable formation for going down Cedar Coulee Mac, would be battalion column, companies in column (probably in twos). When such an insecure formation is forced upon you by terrain, you must get out of it at the earliest possible moment.
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Post by yanmacca on Apr 6, 2019 19:19:16 GMT
They probably are filltered Chuck, I got them from astonisher and it mentions the formations so I posted it.
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Post by quincannon on Apr 6, 2019 20:15:14 GMT
It's that second paragraph that troubles me. How could Custer stop on the hill Reno later defended, and make no mention of seeing Reno in the valley, or fighting, or nearly anything except a bunch of Indians going about their peaceful pursuits. Not seeing warriors is puzzling. Saying they stayed there 10 minutes even more so. Surely Reno would be across Ford A and moving rapidly to the south end of the village complex, and the engagement in the valley started during that ten minutes, and more probably well underway before Custer stopped for that reported ten minutes. Someone is lying.
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Apr 7, 2019 9:15:57 GMT
The Martini stuff is suspect I think for exactly the reasons you mention. As to the formation I think the thing is that it is a situation where speed is essential (as QC says), and this would not be lost on Custer. He has been moving as fast as possible all the way so there is even less reason to slow down now.
AZ I have not had time to look at the map yet but I will later and get back to this. How does your route relate to the idea of "all possible speed"?
As an aside. Would the idea of a company (or two?) left around the big W location to chase off the threat then follow on while the others move forward, be a tactic to keep up the speed.
Cheers
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Apr 7, 2019 11:48:20 GMT
Mac. as to your last above, yes. The engaged unit fires in place as the remainder of the command passes on forward. That would be tactically sound.
Regards, Tom
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Post by quincannon on Apr 7, 2019 13:12:59 GMT
In the vernacular - By Pass and Haul Ass. It does not take five carpenters to drive one nail.
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Post by yanmacca on Apr 7, 2019 19:13:10 GMT
Looking at the position of that W, I would guess that any fire would be directed either downwards into MTC or at the slope on the western side. This to me sounds like the column was not only spotted but was being engaged from the village side of MTC.
If you look at the JSIT map, you can see that he has Indians on both sides of the route taken by the column, which suggests that the battalion could have been fired on from both sides, but given that the cartridge finds were found mainly along that W, would suggest that the attacks were more immediate from the west. Some more on this on the FT.
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Post by quincannon on Apr 7, 2019 22:12:52 GMT
Please see my post on the Founder's Page Ian.
The location of the W would indicate to me that those in skirmish formation there were either firing westerly downhill into Medicine Tail Coulee, or uphill and easterly trying to clear the higher points on the L-N-C Complex. Perhaps both. In either case it mitigates against anything going to Ford B, for any reason. If there are hostiles to the west of you in the coulee they are between you and Ford B. If they are east of you, you cannot afford to turn your back on them and go to that ford. If they are in both directions, and depending upon their presently exposed strength. you must either turn around and go south, or push through and go north. Those choices to me indicate that the hostiles were probably to the east, and that they presented no number thought to be significant (read mission ending)
The firefight at the W was most probably of short duration and involved (again probably) only one company. Regardless, it is very clear that this opposition was dealt with by a small force. Had the entire force engaged you risk losing the initiative. By pass and haul ass is the proper way to deal with these things. When the whole force stops, you have gone 80 percent of the way toward losing that initiative. You are in fact staking out ground to fight on, good or not, and worst, you are giving the enemy the opportunity to mass his forces against you, and take that initiative from your grasp. Had the whole force stopped at the W and fought there, that W would be their death ground.
Wagner always says battle must flow. He is correct, but to that, I would add that it must flow logically. The W was a decision point, how you conduct yourself there, will determine what you can and cannot do further down the road. The decision point at the W makes an excursion to Ford B either one of the two I's - impossible or insane.
Of course if your whole theory and timing depend upon going to Ford B, and you have written it down and published it, you will be forced to find every reason under the sun to dismiss and action at the W. No, Custer having not fired a shot is a pipe dream only found in the Home of the Reader's Digest. Other folks have more sense.
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Post by quincannon on Apr 9, 2019 3:32:05 GMT
Colt you are to be heartily commended for your comprehensive, yet brief, synopsis of the five company north scenario on the black board. Excellent presentation. Alas you may very well be that lone voice crying in that wilderness of myopic miasma of conventional thought. I enjoyed it though.
You even got in one of the few artifact based tactical "tells" we have in this battle, one that were heads not firmly encased in concrete of convention would tell all assundry that something is amiss, someone farted in church. You sneaky little devil, and no one picked up on it.
Well someday someone will see the light, despite the perfidy of obfuscation. It won't be today, but someday.
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Apr 9, 2019 12:31:20 GMT
Re the AZ map and this comment from Martini.
How does this description fit your route AZ?
Cheers
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colt45
First Lieutenant
Posts: 439
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Post by colt45 on Apr 9, 2019 13:19:55 GMT
Thanks, Chuck. Maybe someday someone will pick up on all the evidence that is out there and make a logical conclusion as to what most likely happened.
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