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Post by quincannon on Feb 22, 2018 3:44:59 GMT
D25: I didn't mention it above, but I would think that you ought to consider that Mathey was in charge of the pack trains, but those men detailed to those trains were there for the purpose of guarding company property ostensibly, not for the running of the trains themselves. Don't know how religiously that stupid idea was adhered to, because the whole idea of taking draft mules and converting them to pack mules was insane in the first place.
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azranger
Brigadier General
Ranger
Posts: 1,824
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Post by azranger on Feb 22, 2018 12:34:26 GMT
I think the pack train issue goes back to a time where decision making could have made difference. I think Reno had the mules that had pack experience but he wore them down. It seems a poor decision to have wagon mules placed in packs when on a mission to close on the enemy. So how long of time did the planners of this mission have to get battle ready with the pack train? They knew to bring the packs in wagons.
That the last message includes bring packs tells me that Custer never had handle on what to do with pack train. That he thought of it at last moments seems to me to be something that never happened.
We train officers to have basic skills and the training we call skill builders. We don't want to have officers thinking about skills that should occur automatically. To shoot is a choice but once made the skills should kick in. If you have to think is my weapon loaded, is the safety off (AR), how do I align the sights you are useless in gun fight.
The pack train should have been at the skill level not at the active decision making level in my opinion.
Regards
Steve
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Post by dan25 on Feb 22, 2018 12:40:48 GMT
QC,
When you say draft mule versus pack mule are you referring to donkeys versus mules? It's said that mules can carry more weight and tolerate weight better than donkeys.
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azranger
Brigadier General
Ranger
Posts: 1,824
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Post by azranger on Feb 22, 2018 12:55:54 GMT
dan25
Mules are different in size depending on the size of the mare (horse). So if the mare is a draft horse the mule would be a draft mule. In regards to the use of mules then training and the use come into play. A mule used for pulling a wagon would not be trained in the ambling gait of a pack mule nor would have experienced carrying a pack.
Another side of this is that they had different packs to use also.
Regards
AZ Ranger
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Post by dan25 on Feb 22, 2018 16:17:47 GMT
Thanks AZ for the clarification.
regards dan25
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Post by yanmacca on Feb 22, 2018 17:00:18 GMT
Here is MacDougal's opening account at the RCOI;
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Post by quincannon on Feb 22, 2018 17:06:03 GMT
D25 - Proper Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance
Something said millions of times before, but having nearly a year to plan for the Campaign of 1876 would you not think that experience would lead these fools to plan for, acquire, and train pack mules for that campaign? They acted like none of them thought about tomorrow, and that whatever Indians they would be called upon to subdue would all be located within ten miles of the Powder River Depot. After all they were campaigning in Montana, not Pennsylvania or Virginia. None of these people, not Terry, not Custer, not Gibbon were mentally up to the task.
The only one that knew what he was doing in regard to his own logistics was Crook who learned to use the pack trains in Arizona.
Pack trains do have their limitations though. That limitation being that because of cargo capacity, your range is relatively short and you only have one fight in you.
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Post by dan25 on Feb 22, 2018 19:13:53 GMT
Thanks Yan, that shows that macDougall was behind the pack train. I didn't get a chance to check out the RCOI, I was going by memory which doesn't always work.
Benteen was told to bring the packs, yet he continued on opening the gap between his battalion and the pack train. Trying to use time can be tricky, but I think eventually there was nearly an hour gap between Benteen and the packs, NA's could have infiltrated between the two and attacked the pack train, or even Benteen's rear, so I don't think Benteen was trying to cover the packs or even escort them safely. I realize the NA's were in no position to attack but the threat existed.
QC, I totally agree about the lack of planning, in fact the entire campaign seemed to be a cluster F. There was no coordination between Crook and Terry, in fact I am not sure if Sheridan or Sherman made an effort to coordinate the columns. To me that military campaign should have been coordinated even to the extent as suggesting when each column should depart their respective forts and a possible rendezvous. The military certainly had to have had a rough knowledge of how fast and far infantry, horses, mules and wagons might travel in a day, even the terrain had to be fairly known. That includes weather, since it was purposed for a winter campaign.
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Post by quincannon on Feb 22, 2018 20:12:29 GMT
D25: One of the Principles of War is - Unity of Command
The 1876 Campaign was conducted at and near the junction of two clearly defined Departments. The Wyoming-Montana line was the Department border between Terry and Crook's areas of responsibility. The Principle - Unity of Command - demanded that a superior headquarters exercise command and control of these two areas, and that headquarters direct the operations of both Terry and Crook. Prior to Custer's battle Crook had crossed into Terry's area twice, which is perfectly OK if it is coordinated. It was not, and there was no reliable communications means to both effect coordination and tell the other fellow about what each of them had seen and the experiences they had. Everything Custer needed to know Crook already knew.
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Post by yanmacca on Feb 22, 2018 20:53:32 GMT
If Terry had kept his column united in the same way Crook did, then I suppose this battle would have been totally different.
Terry arrived a couple of days after Custer's last battle, so instead of letting Custer go [which was was letting a hound off its leash], he should have kept his regiment close by for a concertive attack, which he could have planned as they moved closer and behind a screen of scouts or mounted skirmishers.
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Post by quincannon on Feb 23, 2018 4:36:39 GMT
In a hunt, the hunted always has the initiative. Keeping the Dakota/Montana columns united, could in no way wrest the initiative away from the hunted, and pass that initiative to the hunter.
Breaking the mobile striking arm of the Dakota/Montana column away from the slow movers was the right thing to do. It would have accomplished the objective of seizing the initiative away from the Indians, had that mobile striking force been in the hands of a competent commander.
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Post by yanmacca on Feb 23, 2018 12:22:38 GMT
Trouble was though that the mobile arm was not strong enough or led well enough to achieve anything and that's why it either needed enlarging to a brigade or commanded by someone who used the cavalry to their full potential. Benteen knew that breaking up the regiment would dilute its combat power, I suppose he was not alone, but at least he had the guts to openly express his feelings on the matter.
I would have thought that if the 7th had been supported by a couple of Infantry Battalions, that it could have placed the foot soldiers in position around the ford D area and then left the cavalry to drive up the valley in regimental strength and flush them out and into to the waiting Infantry.
I know this sounds cruel, but we are discussing warfare here and I would guess that the US Government was probably waging total war on the Sioux and the other tribes who had left the Rez. If it meant killing everything that moved, then this would be deemed acceptable, but that was the age they lived in.
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Post by dan25 on Feb 23, 2018 14:45:12 GMT
I have to agree the mobile arm by it's self wasn't strong enough, regardless who led it.
I realize this is a "What If" but it would be extremely helpful to me to better understand military tactics. I would love to hear how you would have utilized infantry, considering the terrain, the fords that offered easy access to slow moving soldiers. Would your approach to the LBH be the same?
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Post by yanmacca on Feb 23, 2018 16:07:54 GMT
Dan, the little what I know on this subject is that Cavalry are not designed to fight pitched battles, so they are usually partnered by Infantry and Artillery in a combined arms effort. They are often used as the eyes of the main force and use to screen and scout. But they can attack, especially against a irregular foe like the lightly armed American Indian. But they are vulnerable when they are fixed and forced to fight on foot for long periods. Their main weapon is mobility and this mobilty plus carbine and revolver is their mainstay. Plus we cannot forget that a standard cavalry company circa 1876 was 70 all ranks and companies in the 7th where between 35 and 55. In fact the five companies took by Custer had 38 - 38 - 38 - 38 and 44 respectively, so they are well down on men. All three columns had an Infantry element, so what was the point of taking them if they were not going to utilize them.
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Post by quincannon on Feb 23, 2018 16:10:20 GMT
Nowhere did I say that I would split off the mobile striking arm of the Dakota/Montana column to engage the Indians separately. I said I would split them off to take the initiative away from the Indians.
What I would love to do is, do that so well, that I could send them back to the reservation without a fight. If that did not work lay the groundwork for a fight the Indians must lose.
Smart commanders win the battle before the first shot is fired. They out think before they are forced to out fight.
Infantry is a main battle force. The amount available to the Dakota/Montana column was very small, but still powerful if used as an anvil and not a hammer.
The place to fight a battle if necessary is in the area between present day Hardin and the Yellowstone. Look at a map of that country. It would put the Indians in a funnel, with the combined arms column (Terry) as the stopper, and the mobile column as the enema.
When you take away the Big Horn Mountains option from the Indians they are already beaten.
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