Surgeon Assignments

[quincannon]

Yes the packs were headed that way and that's the point. Why did he insist on having that ball and chain tied around his tactical ankle. They should have been stashed miles to the rear, well out of the way, in such a manner that the security of those trains did not effect his tactical decision making.

The way it was, is similar to a quarterback in football. If you give that quarterback flexibility he can run all sorts of plays from the team playbook, but if you tell him that he can only use running plays, it puts too much in the way of limitations on him. Having those trains back there so close, was like telling that quarterback the only plays you can call are runs.

[dan25]

I realize Custer wanted the packs, but he had to know how slow they moved. After Martini was sent with the message Custer continued to move further away which only widened the gap.

Local Sun Time
1:04 - - - Custer is at or near Cedar Coulee. Martini given message.
1:44 - - - Martini meets Benteen. Custer is at Luce Ridge.
2:51 - - - First Packs arrive Reno hill. Custer is moving away from Ford D
3:20 - - - Last of packs arrive Reno hill. Custer is on Last Stand Hill.

As far as wanting them, eventually the spare ammo would be needed. He just never tried to close the gap

[quincannon]

I am not even going to discuss times with you. Stating times in such a precise manner is a peeing contest where no one can emerge the winner. That said your point is well made, but consider this as well.

Did Custer want the packs? If so why? At the arbitrary Time X, when Martini is dispatched, Custer is not yet in contact, his people still have their untouched basic load. So why does he need the pack trains (at that juncture) to cause Cooke to place such emphasis in the message in repeating Bring Packs twice? Could it be that Custer's concern for the pack trains was only limited to making sure Benteen was covering them as they came up?

You are correct, about him opening the distance, instead of closing it, which mitigates for Custer not needing the trains per say, but just wanting them to be covered in the event that Reno folded.

The people who have tried to place precise times on these events, at least two that I know of, are leaping off of a cliff with a very long drop to the bottom, and in two ways.

First they base their calculations on several factors, distance measurements, terrain crossed, and a few others, but they are nothing more at the end of the day but guesses. They cannot possibly know, for it is unknowable, the exact conditions that existed that day, which themselves were different from the day before and the day afterward. No one can travel in exactly the same elapsed time from Point A to Point B consistently every time.

You cite four events. Disregarding the times, do you have any way to determine if all or any of those events are true exactly as stated. I don't and considering that I am entering the twilight of my years, and I assume you to be much younger, chances are I have been looking at this longer than you. Saying that, the only thing I am completely sure about, to the point I would bet my retirement check on it, is that George Custer died on the afternoon of 25 June 1876.

I know you did not make these times up yourself, and I am not trying to be a hard ass with you. The point is, as it has been from the time I started on these boards, is that there is so much information put out about this battle over the last hundred forty odd years, that people take as gospel, that is nothing of the kind. It is nothing more that supposition, assumption, speculation, flavored with a multitude of outright lies, to the point where nothing can be believed, without a thorough vetting of the individual piece of information. That's damned hard work, and only about 20 percent of the information out there has been so vetted.

I know Wagner. Don't like him much but that is another story. I know he put his heart and soul into his work, and did the best that was humanly possible. I also know that what he set out to do is not humanly possible, unless he rode with George that day, with a watch in one hand and a notebook and pencil in the other. That is the only way you can get these down to the minute recording of events. This of course does not even consider if the event he and others assumed happened, did not. Wagner has included a trip to Ford B in his timeline of events. What if there was no such trip? What would the cumulative effects be on his timeline without it? I suppose Gray did much the same thing, and I assume he did his best as well.

[yanmacca]

We must also remember that there was a lot of stuff stashed away on that train that Custer or any of the other battalion commanders had no need for, example; Custer’s tent, cot and map table and all the other types of personal equipment for the other officers and civilians. Even the EMs had personal effects and extra gear.

The only thing that Custer would want is the ammo, and bullets is what wins him this battle. I was going to add medical supplies, but each surgeon had an orderly which extra packs containing the basics need in battle. Food, well I would bet that Custer would let them chew on what they have in their saddle bags.

I do believe that the ammo mules were brought forward later, Lt. Hare was sent by either Reno or Benteen to cut out the ammo packs and bring them forward. This order was given on Reno hill before they left for Weir Peaks.

Here is an interesting piece about what they carried.

Godfrey’s account of the preparations made for the march:

On our arrival at the mouth of the Rosebud, Generals Terry, Gibbon and Custer had a conference on board the steamer "Far West." It was decided that the 7th Cavalry, under General Custer, should follow the trail discovered by Reno. "Officers' call" was sounded in the 7th Cavalry camp as soon as the conference had concluded. Upon assembling, General Custer gave us our orders. We were to transport, on our pack-mules, fifteen days' rations of hard bread, coffee and sugar; twelve days' rations of bacon, and fifty rounds of carbine ammunition per man. Each man was to be supplied with 100 rounds of carbine and 24 rounds of pistol ammunition, to be carried on his person and in his saddle bags. Each man was to carry on his horse twelve pounds of oats.

The pack-mules sent out with Reno's command were badly used up, and promised seriously to embarrass the expedition. General Custer recommended that some extra forage be carried on the pack-mules. In endeavouring to carry out this recommendation some troop commanders (Captain Moylan and myself) foresaw the difficulties, and told the General that some of the mules would certainly break down, especially if the extra forage was packed. He replied in an unusually emphatic manner. "Well, gentlemen, you may carry what supplies you please; you will be held responsible for your companies.

The extra forage was only a suggestion, but this fact bear in mind, we will follow the trail for fifteen days unless we catch them before that time expires, no matter how far it may take us from our base of supplies; we may not see the supply steamer again"; and, turning as he was about to enter his tent, he added: "You had better carry along an extra supply of salt; we may have to live on horse meat before we get through." He was taken at his word, and an extra supply of salt was carried. "Battalion" and "wing" organizations were broken up, and troop commanders were responsible only to General Custer. Of course, as soon as it was determined that we were to go out, nearly every one took time to write letters home, but I doubt very much if there were many of a cheerful nature. Some officers made their wills; others gave verbal instructions as to the disposition of personal property and distribution of mementos; they seemed to have a presentiment of their fate.

[dan25]

QC, I think what I said was miss understood. 
I only listed those times trying to show how far Custer kept getting farther away from the packs. Which made no sense to me if he felt he needed them. I didn't mean to upset anyone, or pretend to know more than any one else. I have a lot to learn.

I really don't look at those times or distance, or what I read as something written in stone. I only write what I know so far and then see if I was correct.
If you can beat 75 then you win.

regards
dan25

[deadwoodgultch]

Dan, you were clear, hell some folks don't have a clue what local sun time was and how it correlated with the other times.

Regards,
Tom

[yanmacca]

I don't think Custer had a watch or was that bothered, he sounds like a bloke who just goes for it.

Having said that, here is what Godfrey said about the talk given by Custer during the officers call on the night of the 24th, you will see that he wanted to to it by the book but events the next day appears to make him up the ante;

The General said that the trail led over the divide to the Little Bighorn; the march would be taken up at once, as he was anxious to get as near the divide as possible before daylight, where the command would be concealed during the day, and give ample time for the country to be studied, to locate the village, and to make plans for the attack on the 26th.

[quincannon]

I am 75. If you are too your typing fingers sound young.

I think I know why you used the times, and for how you used them they were a very effective tool for showing that growing distance. My only argument is that people that read what you or I, or any of the rest of us, say as gospel. Truth is none of us know, as in having 100 percent certitude of something being a fact.

[dan25]

Yan, thank you for the informative information. Every little bit helps me better understand things.
As for attacking. Correct me if I am wrong, what I see so far is the only person that attacked or attempted to attack was Reno. Custer never actually attacked the NA's, the NA's attacked him.

QC, my fingers sincerely appreciate the compliment.

As for what we say being taken for gospel, I am not sure how to respond to that. Maybe shame on any one that reads just one book, then assumes that has to be the gospel truth and doesn't bother to read another.

I posted a newspaper interview for anyone that hasn't read it already.
regards
dan25

[quincannon]

You are not wrong, well not really wrong, although it would be more proper to say that the only one that conducted an assault was Reno.

Technically the attack commences at the line of departure. That LD was back up on the divide and the regiment was attacking from that point on, moving forward. At the point Benteen was split off would be considered the regimental line of deployment. In this instance the regiment only partially deployed, the other two battalions continuing the march to the point where Reno split into the valley. Reno after crossing and moving through a smallish timbered area, then deployed his battalion (Bn PLD) into an assault formation and continued his mission to assault the southern end of the village.

The attack is any forward movement for offensive purposes. The assault is the culmination of that attack where you come in contact, at or near your objective.

Attacks are divided into four phases - APPROACH MARCH - DEPLOYMENT - ASSAULT - CONSOLIDATION AND REORGANIZATION. Had Custer assaulted over Ford D and entered the northern end of that village, his attack would have run out of steam somewhere north of Ford B, most probably. It was in the last of the four phases, consolidation and reorganization where he would have been the most vulnerable. In fact everyone is most vulnerable in that phase. The manta is if someone kicks you off, turn around immediately and counterattack with everything you have. It does not matter if what you have is only a squad, ---- counterattack. You have your enemy in a mental state of disarray.
  
We really don't know if Custer was in the process of assaulting when he was stopped. Opinions differ greatly. We do know he was attacking though. Chances are that if he was assaulting he never got much past his PLD.

LD = Line Of Departure, the start point.

PLD = Probable Line of Deployment, the place you identify on the ground as the most likely place you will either meet the enemy or start taking fire. Most of the time today the PLD is identified by visual, map, or computer graphic reconnaissance. In those days it was more likely decided by visual sighting, of an area you consider to be so dangerous that it warrants deployment before reaching it. The PLD for a Custer assault on Ford D for instance is most likely the Cemetery Ridge-Battle Ridge Extension twin terrain features. No one in his right mind would cross over without being fully deployed

[dan25]

QC, that was really informative. I certainly appreciate you explaining the meaning for each abbreviation. I did not know the difference between attack and assault or when each commenced. I served during peace time when I was young and wild. Never learned anything except where the beer hall and em club was.

[azranger]

I think there is a difference in approach for developing a timeline between Gray and Fred Wagner. Gray took marching speeds and applied them to his timeline then he chose accounts that fit the speed. So Gray ends up with Custer moving down Reno Creek at 4 mph. That would be slower than Indians would flee the village. If you look at what Fred did he took the accounts for the various movements at different points and routes and used them to form the his time line. His speeds are overall speeds between accounts in time and location. The results are that Custer moves down Reno Creek at a trot range of speed instead of a walk like Gray uses.

I was looking over the data from our Benteen ride and it has 11 mph as the top speed which I have no clue when we did that or for how long.  I think Fred has Custer's overall speed at around 8 mph down Reno Creek which is in the middle of a trot range.

Regards

AZ Ranger

[quincannon]

They are still calculations Steve. I don't doubt that he was careful and did his best. My argument is a person's best is not good enough, and will never be good enough to categorically state that this or that event took place at a precise,down to the minute,time. Bull shit is still bull shit regardless if that bull shit is scientifically derived bull shit.

Wagner also has his reader trapped within the scenario of Wagner's own making. It is not only the times that are calculated bull shit, the events those times are based upon are in several cases themselves suspect.

Wagner was much better when he satisfied himself with researching the people involved. Timelines, and exact times tied to specific events are for him a bridge too far.

[azranger]

Feb 9, 2018 15:51:02 GMT quincannon said:

They are still calculations Steve. I don't doubt that he was careful and did his best. My argument is a person's best is not good enough, and will never be good enough to categorically state that this or that event took place at a precise,down to the minute,time. Bull shit is still bull shit regardless if that bull shit is scientifically derived bull shit.

Wagner also has his reader trapped within the scenario of Wagner's own making. It is not only the times that are calculated bull shit, the events those times are based upon are in several cases themselves suspect.

Wagner was much better when he satisfied himself with researching the people involved. Timelines, and exact times tied to specific events are for him a bridge too far.

The difference is that Gray fixed his speed of the horses at 4 mph down Reno Creek. He then selected accounts that fit that  speed and rejected others. There are zero calculations. So once you select 4 mph as Custer's overall average speed that limits the Benteen speed to what it would take Custer moving at 4 mph down Reno Creek to pass where Benteen met Reno Creek. The pack train speed overall average speed is limited to way  less than 4 mph. To create the gap between Custer and the pack train the 4 mph reduces the pack train speed below what it would be if Custer was moving at 8 mph.

 In Fred's methodology the speeds are calculated from the accounts. There are actual calculations in Fred's method and it can also change if different accounts are discovered.

As an investigator I would not use a fixed overall rate of speed to determine what really occurred. The accounts are the best evidence even if not correct to attempt to put together a timeline. I believe you are arguing the accounts are not accurate as to start and stop times and distances. Could be correct. 

My argument would be that using 4 mph is a one size fits all method and it excludes all accounts. There is no need for Gray to have any accounts and he only puts those in that fit his 4 mph.  For me the kicker is that 4 mph is less than what I would expect horses to be moving at in order to catch Indians moving away at a faster speed than 4 mph.

I would think the true overall average speed would be somewhere between 6-9 mph and the accounts seem to verify it.

The problem I see with attempting to use +/- ranges for each account in time is that it has the potential for a large cumulative +/- error. If the error potential becomes larger than the actual total time you have done something wrong.

I do agree that in the end Fred had to make choices and/or opinions. So to dispute them look at the accounts to find the error if it exists. What I see is that most authors have to make a decision on what they believe. I don't expect them to change their opinion just because someone else has a different opinion. They have committed in writing what they believe occurred.

I don't know how many of us reach that firm of an opinion. I am glad some do or we would have nothing to read about this topic.

Regards

Steve

[quincannon]

Steve, when you state categorically that such and such an event took place at exactly 2:04 PM you cannot use average speeds or any other calculation to determine that with any degree of precise accuracy.

That is far different than someone saying the event happened around 10:00 in the morning. The around ten puts the event in the overall perspective that the author wishes to paint on the canvas of his work

No one, and I mean NO ONE on Gods green earth knows or can determine the elapsed times for Custer's movement on that particular day. To say they do and can, based upon averages, calculation, soothsaying, or black magic is just plain bull shitting, and it is a disservice to the reader.

Of course he stands by his work. It is by far the best that has ever been attempted, but that does not change the fact that in doing so, he has become far too precise, and all that serves to do is delude the reader into thinking that the collective WE knows more about this battle than we do, or that can ever be known.

When an author is forced into making choices and opinions, that is OK. We all do that, but we cannot make choices and opinions about precise times. We must have a factual account that something happened at that exact time. A good example is the attack on Pearl Harbor. We can factually state when the Japanese aircraft appeared over the harbor itself, and exactly when they departed, for those exact times were recorded in the Pacific Fleet command logs, along with several other specific times for events that occurred during that attack. Compare that to the non precise time reporting of
the concurrent attacks on Wheeler, Hickham, Schofield Barracks, Eva, and the rest. We have decent guesswork for those places, but nothing precise.

I am arguing that no one on this earth can compute exact to the minute times lines period. Further I argue that no one is even certain that any of these events occurred. So it is a two pronged argument, and either end of it spells out the fact that precise to the minute times are impossible to determine without a person being there that day and recording the times and events.

There is also the historians rule, that we seldom see put in practice regarding LBH ---- ONE WITNESS EQUALS NO WITNESS