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Post by yanmacca on Feb 6, 2018 16:23:09 GMT
Yes he defiantly stacked up his battalion to deliver the main blow. Just looking at the companies he selected also shows which officers he favoured and many of these are either yes men or personal friends.
Ford B would have rendered itself void after he past it, don't forget that once he past the ford, he would have had no intentions of back peddling and using it again, to him he was looking at another spot further north.
I suppose that in every battle, commanders pass places that could become hot spots later, but if they detailed troops to garrison all of these hot spots, then their initial force would be so diluted that they would not be strong enough to win the day later.
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Post by dan25 on Feb 6, 2018 16:24:16 GMT
QC, I agree with what you say with the exception, "he wasn't born that way". It appears that occasionally a well meaning and moral family can bear a child that grows into a monster without any help or influence from peers or associates. Yet on the other hand you may be correct regarding Custer. I know very little about Gen. Sheridan. What I have read, he seemed to come to Custer's aid quite often. Like having a "get out of jail free" card, which would explain why all the rules didn't apply to Custer.
I am sorry to hear of the incidents.
Deadwood, I appreciate the information about Dr. Porter.
Yan, the only thing missing is the men striped from the regiment to guard the pack train. I understand the importance of guarding the pack train. Aside from McDougalls company, do you think it was necessary to assign so many men under Lt. Mathey? If my notes are correct, of the 55 men assigned to Mathey, the majority, 46 men were taken from Custer's 5 already under strength companies.
regards dan25
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Post by yanmacca on Feb 6, 2018 16:26:09 GMT
I will get back to you later Dan with the number of trooper packers from Custer's battalion.
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Post by quincannon on Feb 6, 2018 18:04:48 GMT
The pack trains: The pack trains have been covered here long ago, but since you are new, and those that visit may also be new it would not hurt to briefly cover them again. When a unit is in combat today, and then, the force is generally divided into two echelons, the combat echelon and the support echelon. The combat force contains, both the combat elements and the combat trains. The content of the combat elements speak for themselves, but the combat trains that accompany them are generally small, containing usually only ammunition and readily available medical supplies. Today they would also contain fuel especially if the combat echelon was armored, mechanized, or motorized. With horse cavalry you can eliminate the fuel (forage) so Custer's combat trains, had he used the concept would be limited to the first two items. There are also a couple of ways to employ the combat trains. You could assign one ammo mule to each company, or probably the better way would be to assign two or three mules carrying all that was required to each battalion. That would leave the bulk of the supplies, all classes of supplies, in the support echelon, better known as the field trains. I was reading Sears' "Chancellorsville" just the other day where he makes great note of Jackson organizing for his famed flank march by ridding himself of his support echelon and sending them south, while keeping his combat trains, the essentials for battle ammunition and medical suplies, traveling along with each of his assaulting divisions. Jackson's example gives us plenty of proof that the combat/field trains concept was well known and universally employed at the time. So we do have president. Custer's trains were made up of draft mules, never trained to be pack mules. From the time he left his wagons behind at the Powder River depot, those mules were a complete pain in Custer's ass. Those detail men were drawn from each of his companies, not so much as guards, but personnel required to keep those stubborn jack asses moving. reinforcing the civilian packers in that role if you will. Then there was the guard company, 1/12 of your combat power detailed to mind a bunch of jack asses and their minders. Mind you Custer detailed that company on the eve of meeting the largest Indian confederation ever formed in the west who were all in one place. What is the reasonable solution: 1) Stash the field trains outside the battle space and leave only the civilians to guard them. There is risk involved, but not all that much. 2) Put all those troops back in their parent companies, and put Company B back in with the Custer battalion. Doing that increases your combat power somewhere between 20 and 25 percent. 3) Form a combat train for each battalion, with probably three mules each for Benteen and Reno, and four for the Custer battalion. Again I want to emphasize the fact that the above procedure was well known at the time, and if you are a Napoleonic Wars fan like I am you see the same thing done by Wellington sixty plus years before at Salamanca and Waterloo. / You may certainly disagree what led Custer to believe he was a rules don't apply to me golden boy, but I have just never seen such persons who were not enabled by those around him. Don't let anyone ever tell you that this person or that is a born leader either. Leaders are forged and shaped by the influence of others, just like shit asses. The deputy sheriff KIA was 34 years old, married, and a father of two. He was part of a multi agency car theft task force, as were all the others officers that were wounded. There was a civilian injured by gun fire as well. As far as I know all are now stable. The individual that shot them has passed through the gates of gang banger Valhalla. I have yet to see his weeping, out of control, mama on TV -- saying he was such a good boy I don't know what happened. His frigging mama happened that's what. / My son in law volunteered for the assignment in Afghanistan. This is his second combat tour, the first in Iraq about five years ago. His going does not make my daughter jump for joy, for she is not a soldier's wife, but she is a soldier's daughter so she understands.
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Post by Beth on Feb 6, 2018 18:28:16 GMT
First, I wish to thank every one for their kind reply. Beth, thank you for the welcome. Forgive my curiosity about something so trivial. If Custer felt Benteen didn't need a surgeon and there was no particular reason for sending 2 surgeon's with just 3 companies, you would think Custer having retained the larger force of 5 companies would have kept the extra surgeon with him. I don't think Custer would have anticipated Reno's command might suffer heavy casualties. I guess this is just another small mystery. regards dan25 Dan, we are delighted to have you and look forward to your continued input on our board. I think at one time we have all been sort of sucked into the world of the battle because of some seemingly trivial matter and the need to pick the brains of others with a shared interest. I know my seeking out message boards was because of a question about swords. What I am trying to say is never apologize for seeking answers because if no one has the answer, it will probably trigger an interesting discussion as we seek out an answer. I agree that Custer's anticipation of BLBH did not include any of the events that happened. At the very least, despite any views of Custer the man, I do not believe that he would have intentionally subjected his friends and family to suffer such heavy casualties.
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Post by Beth on Feb 6, 2018 18:46:00 GMT
On the contrary. There is absolutely nothing that is important about the battle of the Little Big Horn. Nothing at all. It is all mush for the masses, and the conspiracy theorists. There is not one lesson to be learned from the battle that was not previously learned as far back as when Moses was in the bulrushes. The fascination we have for it should not be mistaken as being important. It's not. It's just fascination. Battles only achieve the state of importance if the survival of civilizations depend on the outcome, if they are turning points in a given conflict, or they teach us something new in the field of the military arts and sciences. Little Big Horn met none of these requirements, yet we are drawn with fascinated attention to this unimportant affair in such a manner that we feel the Holy Grail of military wisdom is contained in a three hour period on a Summer's Sunday afternoon. There is no Sir Percival in the ranks of LBH fanatics, and there is nothing that draws us to this battle, that should do anything but despise the actions of one who has become one of history's anointed, with not one shred of evidence as why he should be. The battle was important to the Native Americans, I hold no illusion that their culture would have survived no matter how the battle turned but the battle and its aftermath escalated matters and left a society striped of all dignity. On the other hand all battles in the end battles become trivial in the end when you take in the history of time and the rise and fall of civilians. They quickly become something that a bunch of scholars or people with a fascination for history start discussing down to the finest detail.
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Post by Beth on Feb 6, 2018 18:58:14 GMT
I am not in a very good, or charitable mood tonight. At 1600 hours local three deputies and a CS police officer were shot, with one deputy KIA, and the other three critical WIA . That plus my son in law just got orders today to Afghanistan for a year long tour. He is a DA Civilian, and will be the deputy commander at one of our bases over there. My heart goes out to your community-events like that are shattering, yet they also help us find the best of our nature. It will be a difficult year for your family. I know when my brother was in Desert Storm and then for an extended time in the area after, we hung on to every news report that mentioning the area and perhaps didn't take a full breathe until he was back onto friendly grounds.
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Post by Beth on Feb 6, 2018 19:17:16 GMT
QC, I agree with what you say with the exception, "he wasn't born that way". It appears that occasionally a well meaning and moral family can bear a child that grows into a monster without any help or influence from peers or associates. Yet on the other hand you may be correct regarding Custer. I know very little about Gen. Sheridan. What I have read, he seemed to come to Custer's aid quite often. Like having a "get out of jail free" card, which would explain why all the rules didn't apply to Custer. regards dan25 Dan, I believe that Custer was a man of restless energy and intelligence who was never properly checked and put straight both in his rearing or his career. I don't want to give you the impression that I am Custerphile. I come come from the perspective that Custer was very much like the kid on a high school team who leads them to a victorious season and even scored the winning points in a key conference rivalry. He was praised by his team and community and perhaps even ended up with a cheerleader however when the adrenal rush of such triumphs faded he was ill equipped to hand life and found the every day minutia that the rest of the world deals with daily. His career sputtered, stalled and he could not find anything that would ever give him that sort of high again. He did not do well with being ordinary and wanted to be extraordinary again. I don't believe though he would have scarified friends and family to achieve it. He needed them too much.
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Post by yanmacca on Feb 6, 2018 19:36:30 GMT
To be a police man or woman in England is bad enough, its a dangerous job, no doubt about that. I would guess that it is even more dangerous is the states. All law enforcement officers have to put their life on the line ever time the approach a car or even an individual. The British bobby carries no weapons other than a night stick and pepper spray plus cuffs. We may not have the level of guns on our streets like they do in Europe and the States, but they are there.
Bottom line is that we have to appreciate the role the police play in our safety and not treat them as our enemy, which you do see in the large cities. Parts of Liverpool where the ethnic populace resides are virtually no go areas for cops and if they have to enter them, they area as welcome as a turd in a swimming pool.
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Post by yanmacca on Feb 6, 2018 19:37:36 GMT
Chuck, I wish your son in law well in his latest tour and I hope he comes back safe and well.
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Post by yanmacca on Feb 6, 2018 19:53:11 GMT
Dan, I get it to 49 the number of men detached from C, E, F, I & L to serve in the pack train. As follows;
C Company [8] Sergeant. R. Hanley Pvt. J. Bennett [WIA (DOW)] Pvt. I. Fowler Pvt. J. Jordan Pvt. J. McGuire [WIA] Pvt. J. Mahoney Pvt. M. Mullin Pvt. A. Whittaker [WIA]
E Company [9] Sergeant. T. Riley [WIA] Blacksmith. H. Miller Farrier. A. Spencer Pvt. F. Berwald Pvt. J. James Pvt. J. Kimm Pvt. H. Lange Pvt. H. Liddiard [KIA] Pvt. J. McKenna
F Company [10] Sergeant. W. Curtis Pvt. W. Gregg Pvt. F. Howard Pvt. F. Hunter Pvt. M. Lefler Pvt. B. Lyons Pvt. F. Myers Pvt. E. Pickard Pvt. M. Reiley Pvt. J. Rooney
I Company [9] Sergeant. M. Delacy Pvt. C. Braun Pvt. D. Cooney Pvt. H. Jones Pvt. F. Kennedy Pvt. J. McNally Pvt. J. McShane Pvt. E. Owens Pvt. C. Ramsey
L Company [13] Sergeant. J. Mullen Pvt. W. Abrams Pvt. C. Banks Pvt. N. Brown Pvt. J. Burkman Pvt. W. Etzler Pvt. W. Logue Pvt. J. Marshall [WIA] Pvt. P. McHugh Pvt. L. Moore Pvt. P. Rose Pvt. H. Stoffel Pvt. T. Sullivan
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Post by dan25 on Feb 6, 2018 20:06:58 GMT
QC, I appreciate your answer and didn't mean for you to explain something you already posted.
I never considered those men being used to help with the pack train, I viewed them as being sent just to guard it. Which was sort of over kill. Considering the number was above average for a company. Ask and ye shall learn.
Beth, I appreciate your post, just can't help being me. I am thankful when some one helps me better understand something or enlighten me to something new.
As for Custer, Beth I agree, I don't believe he would have intentionally sacrificed friends or family. As for needing them I truly agree just as he needed his fan club. Being put into a situation that required immediate action without any thought, I think Custer would respond impulsively with out any thought of safety or consequence. Just my thinking. I have a lot to learn about Custer.
Yan, thank you for all that work. I had 46. Must have missed a few on my roster.
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Post by yanmacca on Feb 6, 2018 20:07:24 GMT
If you add 49 to the men detached from the other six companies;
A Company: 7 D Company: 11 G Company: 7 H Company: 7 K Company: 6 M Company: 9 Total: 47. Then add the 49 from the other five: 96 Then add B Company [45] And you have a total of 141 plus civilians of course.
One reason for each company detailing men, was to protect their own company mules. Each company had six and these carried the company valuables so to speak. I think that each company was ordered to shed one NCO and six privates for this task, but as you can see from the totals, this was seldom the case.
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Post by dan25 on Feb 6, 2018 20:25:29 GMT
Wow, My roster is way off, or I seriously need new glasses. I had 55 plus 45 for McDougall.
First chance I get I will re-read my roster. Maybe I need a new one.
If you put the average company size at about 45 men, that would put in man power/fighting strength to 3 companies in the rear.
Thanks Yan you are being extremely helpful.
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Post by quincannon on Feb 6, 2018 20:56:28 GMT
Ian's point is THE point. The reduction in combat power for a nearly useless (in battle) function is criminal negligence.
It seems that when we draw new blood to this site, that there is a lot of coverage of ground we have trodden before. That is not a bad thing, or burdensome It serves to refresh us all.
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