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Post by deadwoodgultch on Sept 19, 2019 12:16:53 GMT
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Post by quincannon on Nov 9, 2019 18:07:50 GMT
Ian: Do you have any order of battle data on the 1st, 3rd, and 4th Light Divisions before they were converted to the 6th, 8th, and 9th Panzer Division respectively. I have data on the 2nd which became the 7th Panzer Division, and the 5th Light which was a non-standard "light" division, I suppose calling it "light" for want of any better name considering that it was thrown together from what was available.
Evidently the 1st through 4th Light Division were created as an appeasement to the German cavalry branch who thought their branch overlooked when the panzer divisions were created. I take from that that the German Army had its version of John K. Herr
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Post by yanmacca on Nov 9, 2019 20:07:33 GMT
I have this on my website Chuck;
Here is some data from a German source [which explains the gramma as I had to translate it with google], which I found when I was researching these units, I kept it in case I needed it the future;
1. Leichte Division The division participated in the Polish campaign in the 10th Army. The division took on September 2, 1939 Wielun, then passed the Warthe at Kanopnica and Rychlocice and fought on September 5 and 6, 1939 for the Widawka position. On September 8, 1939, the division fought at Wiercbia and then until September 12, 1939 at Radom. From 17 to 20 September 1939, the division fought between Modlin and Warsaw. From September 21 to October 14, 1939, the division was based south of Warsaw.
3. Leichte Division On August 28, 1939, the division was mobilized. At the beginning of the Polish campaign, it was subordinate to the XV. Army Corps and pushed with this over the Warthe Nida section to the southern edge of the large forest area of Lysa Gora. Subsequently, it was subordinated to the 8th Army and the advance from the Lodz area via Krosniewice to the Bzura bar and into the area south of Kutno. Here the division ended the Polish camp.
4. Leichte Division The division was formed from the rapid division of the Austrian army. Later, the staff was transferred to St. Pölten, also military district XVII. In March 1939, the division was involved in the invasion of the Czech Republic.
If you need something more detailed, I can asked a few friends of mine, but that info should be pretty much on the money, so let me know if you need anything else.
Ian
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Post by yanmacca on Nov 10, 2019 14:49:37 GMT
I also have other units to these divisions like Service Units, Administration and others with medical, field hospital, MP and Field Post.
Here is some more things I have too, if you need them;
1st Leichte Division Attached; 76th Luftwaffe Light Flak Battalion. Officers: 302 Warrant Officers: 101 NCOs: 1.485 Other Ranks: 8.047
Tank Numbers 25/9/39: Pz.Mk.II: 8 Pz.Mk.IV: 9 Pz 38t: 77
3rd Leichte Division Attached; 3rd Luftwaffe Reconnaissance Staffel. Officers: 332 Warrant Officers: 105 NCOs: 1.616 Other Ranks: 8.719
Tank Numbers 1/9/39: Pz.Mk.II: 45 Pz 38t: 55 Pz.Bef.Wg 35t: 2
4th Leichte Division Attached; 94th Luftwaffe Light Flak Battalion. Officers: 346 Warrant Officers: 106 NCOs: 1.685 Other Ranks: 9.170
Tank Numbers 1/9/39: Pz.Mk.I: 34 Pz.Mk.II: 23 Pz.Bef.Wg: 5
Ian
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Post by quincannon on Nov 10, 2019 15:18:19 GMT
Thanks Ian. That is what I needed.
Think it might be a bit more accurate to change the word disbanded in your links to converted, as these divisions were not disbanded at all, rather converted from one type of division to another then renamed/renumbered to reflect their new function.
Did not check how you did the 33rd Infantry Division,but that too was a direct conversion, renaming/renumbering it to 15th Panzer, as were many others.
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Post by yanmacca on Nov 10, 2019 19:55:41 GMT
Yeah, I don't know I used the term disbanded, I will amend this error. I havent got to doing the infantry divisions yet Chuck, there are loads of them. I have been trying to add the Ramcke brigade, but the data on this unit is rather scant,this is all I have so far;
Fallschirmjäger-Brigade Ramcke
Brigadestab (staff/command) Commander: General der Fallschirmtruppen Bernhard Hermann Ramcke
Battalion Kroh (I./ Fallschirmjäger Regiment .2) Commander: Major Kroh Battalion Headquarters I. Fleigerjaeger Kompanie II. Fleigerjaeger Kompanie III. Fleigerjaeger Kompanie IV. Kompanie V. Kompanie
Battalion Von Der Heydte (I./Fleigerjaeger Regiment .3) Commander: Major Von Der Heydte Commander: Major Hübner Battalion Headquarters I. Fleigerjaeger Kompanie II. Fleigerjaeger Kompanie III. Fleigerjaeger Kompanie Schwere Kompanie
Battalion Hübner (II./Fleigerjaeger Regiment .5) Commander: Major Hübner Battalion Headquarters I. Fleigerjaeger Kompanie II. Fleigerjaeger Kompanie III. Fleigerjaeger Kompanie IV. Kompanie V. Kompanie
Battalion Burkhardt (Fleigerjaeger-Lehr Battalion/XI. Flieger-Korps) Commander: Major Burkhardt Battalion Headquarters I. Fleigerjaeger Kompanie II. Fleigerjaeger Kompanie III. Fleigerjaeger Kompanie IV. Kompanie V. Kompanie
Fallschirm-Artillerie Regiment .2 Commander: Major Fenski I. Fallschirm-Artillerie Batterie: 4 x 10.5cm LG40s II. Fallschirm-Artillerie Batterie: 4 x 10.5cm LG40s III. Fallschirm-Artillerie Batterie: 4 x 10.5cm LG40s
Pionier Kompanie .2 Commander: Hauptmann Tietjen
Panzerjäger Abteilung .7 Commander: Hauptmann Hasender
Signal Company Commander:
Ian
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Post by quincannon on Nov 11, 2019 16:21:32 GMT
Ian: The Ramcke Brigade was another of those German formations that were thrown together from various sources to meet an immediate need, that being more Infantry now. They were from all reports very good troops, but I would think somewhat out of their element in the desert.
The naming of battalions, and companies after their commanders drives me up the wall in the narratives from the German side. It was quite common to do so in the German Army, in much the same way we did it in our own civil war (Archer's Brigade, Pender's Brigade etc). Rommel uses it quite often in his published papers, as do many others. Problem for me is the tracking of the same battalion, when the commanders change.
On another, but related subject, I have long thought it to be a grave error, considering German motor vehicle production capacity, to create panzer divisions. I would think it to be far better for them to spread the motor wealth around and at least partially motorize all of their divisions, then create panzer brigades fully equipped with tracked vehicles including half tracks for their Infantry, and self propelled guns for their artillery. Then the idea would be to attach a panzer brigade to an Infantry division, for a specific mission, and when the mission was over detach them and utilize them elsewhere. An organization of two panzer battalions, two panzergrenadier battalions and a SP battalion, along with a recon company, an engineer company,and the normal allotment of support services. I believe they could have accomplished what they did, this way just as well.
You could also have the option of using these panzer brigades together under a controlling headquarters. Think what Rommel could have done with say six such brigades operating directly under the DAK. The advantage that a number of strong separate brigades have over a division is that brigades are easier to maneuver, much easier to fight, and bring all combat power together, easier to reconstitute and rebuild if necessary, and supplying them is much easier and faster. THe Germany Army of today seems to be headed in this very direction, and no one has studied German failures in WWII more than the Germans. Since the inception of the new German Army in the 1950's the Germans have sought to correct their past organizational mistakes.
Another diversion: When the 7th Panzer operated in France in 1940, Rommel solved his motorized Infantry keeping up with his tanks problem in a rather unique manner I thought. He attached his motorcycle battalion to his 25th Panzer Regiment. It seems his Rifle Brigade had a difficult time keeping up with his tanks, but the motorcycles could.
When the 5th Light got to Afrika its 200th Infantry Regiment (For Special Purposes) was formed from two motorcycle battalions which had heretofore been separate battalions. I believe the motorcycle battalions kept their separate identities for some time, and the 200th was just the headquarters that controlled them. You may want to research that for your site.
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Post by yanmacca on Nov 11, 2019 20:13:34 GMT
The 200th Infantry used to be the Infantry Regiment z.b.V. 200 (Rifle), which is as you say for special purposes. Funny enough, I have discussed this on another site, it was a while ago now, but I did copy some of the answers given to me and saved them for future work. Here is a part of the conversation; The Inf.-R. Stab z.b.V. 200 with MGB 2 was transferred to 15. Panzer-Div. from 5. le. Div in late 1941 and 15. Panzer-Div. released Schützen-R. 104 to 5. le. Div. The MGB2 became the 3rd battalion of Schützen-R. 115 in 15. Panzer-Div. in 1942. The Inf.-R. Stab z.b.V. 200 was transferred to 90. le. Div. and renamed Inf.-R. 200 in April 1942.
The source indicates the 3rd battalion of Inf.-R. 347 became the 1st battalion of Inf.-R. 200 on 1st April 1942. According to another source the 3rd battalion of Schützen-R. 155 became the 2nd battalion of Inf.-R. 200. in April 1942. The third source indicates the 3rd battalion of Inf.-R. 255 was disbanded in 1942.
Ian
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Post by yanmacca on Nov 11, 2019 20:24:26 GMT
Here is what I have for the 200th Schützen Regiment dated February 1941; 200th Schützen Regiment
1 x (mot) Signals Platoon
2nd (mot) Machinegun Battalion 1 x (mot) Signals Platoon 1 x Motorcycle Company 3 x (mot) Machinegun Companies 1 x (mot) Heavy Company including; Pak & Mortar Platoons 2 x (mot) Pioneer Companies
8th (mot) Machinegun Battalion 1 x (mot) Signals Platoon 1 x Motorcycle Company 3 x (mot) Machinegun Companies 1 x (mot) Support Company [no heavy weapons] 1 x (mot) Pak Company 1 x (mot) Heavy Company including; Pak & Mortar Platoons 1 x (mot) Pioneer Company
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Post by yanmacca on Nov 11, 2019 20:55:54 GMT
They did employ Independent Panzer Brigades, but not like the ones you describe, and these numbered from 100th to 113th, thirteen in all. These Brigades were pretty strong with a Panzer Battalion or regiment, an armoured Infantry Battalion or regiment, but no artillery which was a major flaw. The strongest out of the twelve was the 103rd Panzer Brigade; link
They issued orders for another brigade in November 1944 [150th], which was armed with captured American equipment and manned by troops from 1/11th panzer regiment. It only contained a single panzer company armed with five panzer tanks, which had alterations made to make them look like M10s.
Ian
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Post by yanmacca on Nov 12, 2019 12:05:01 GMT
Hitler wanted the Brigade option, he wanted brigades with one armoured battalion and a armoured Infantry battalion, to function in a fire brigade roll, being sent from front to front, to counter attack Soviet breakthroughs. The Germans thought that these small bridges would be more mobile and attract less attention then full divisions. The first few were formed in this way, but some had larger regimental units instead of battalions. One of the largest was 103rd PB; link
Ian
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Post by quincannon on Nov 12, 2019 16:10:01 GMT
Your post is a cautionary tale Ian, about how we envision what a brigade is or we think should be in our minds eye. Most of us think it would be about a third the size of a division. Most of us see an organization of three to five thousand personnel. That's what we think we should see, but in theory a brigade can be whatever we want it to be.
Take for instance my old brigade. Then it was about 4500 people, organized into several battalions of different types. Today it is less than a thousand in strength and reorganized into a battlefield intelligence brigade of a headquarters, two battalions (one of which I have not a clue as to its function) and a couple of separate companies. In theory it can accept attachments for limited periods of time, based upon the mission of the moment.I suppose the reason it is called a brigade is that it is commanded by a colonel. Can't see any other reason for what is in terms of personnel a big battalion.
The Germans used an assault gun brigade, which in any other army in the world would be a battalion. Have yet to figure that one out.
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Post by yanmacca on Nov 12, 2019 20:17:45 GMT
They were originally battalions Chuck, it was only on 25th February 1944, when they redesignated them brigades. Each of these brigades had an infantry component referred to as an escort company. These came in two forms, with an armoured company containing a Company HQ, pioneer platoon and flak platoon all in half-tracks. The second company was an infantry company which had no vehicles, so maybe they rode on the StuGs. They formed quite a few of these brigades and from what I can gather, they were kept at Korps level. Maybe they were used in the same way the US Army used their tank destroyer battalions and kept them independent and simply added them to Infantry divisions when needed.
This what the German Army said about these units in 1942;
Principles of Employment General The assault gun battalions belongs to the army artillery. When employed, they are usually subordinated to infantry divisions or motorized infantry division. During this time, they are entrusted to the supervision of the divisional artillery commander. In the hands of the divisional commander, the assault gun battalion is a means to strengthen the offensive strength of the infantry at the decisive point. Whether the entire assault gun battalion is employed with a single infantry regiment, or the batteries are divided amongst the regiments, depends on the situation and terrain. Basically, the assault gun units are to be subordinated to the infantry commander of the unit that they are supporting. This similarly applies when the assault guns are assigned to advance battalions, vanguards, or split-off units. Splitting the assault gun units into small parts (platoons, individual guns) impairs the firepower and makes the enemy defenses more effective. Infantry support using single platoons is therefore to be limited to exceptional cases, where the battery commander can't command the entire battery, for example, when supporting assault troop companies or employment in unclear terrain.
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Post by yanmacca on May 3, 2020 19:05:30 GMT
15th Panzer Division Kampfgruppe for attack on Sidi Azeiz 20th November 1941.
1st Kampfgruppe 8th Panzer Regiment Commander Oberstleutnant Cramer 4 x Pz. Bef.Wg II 5 x Pz. Bef.Wg III 38 x Pz IIs 76 x Pz IIIs 21 x Pz IVs 1/33rd Artillery Regiment 3rd Kp, 33rd FlaK Battalion 1st Kp, 33rd Panzerjäger Battalion 3rd Kp, 33rd Panzer Pioneer Battalion
2nd Kampfgruppe Commander Oberst Menny [Co 15th Schürzen Brigade] 115th Schürzen Regiment 3rd Kp, 33rd Panzerjäger Battalion 2/33rd Artillery Regiment
3rd Kampfgruppe Commander Oberstleutnant Geissler [Co 200th z.b.V. Regiment] 1st & 2nd Kp. 33rd Panzer Pioneer Battalion 2nd Kp, 33rd Panzerjäger Battalion 3/33rd Artillery Regiment
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