|
Post by yanmacca on Jan 5, 2018 20:53:29 GMT
Apparently Chuck, the 5. Pz Div sustained fourteen tank losses in Greece;
1 x Pz I 11 x Pz IIIs 2 x Pz IVs
Most of these were from the 1. Pz Company of the 31. Pz Regt. During the battles around Thermopile [24 April 1941]. In June 1941 the 5. Pz was then moved to Berlin [minus 5. Pz Company which went to Crete] and ordered to reorganize for tropical service. It was then ordered to Russian and was part of 4. Panzer Army [XLVI Pz Korps]. It took part in operation typhoon.
I am still hopelessly embarrassed at the basic mistake I did this morning, if the blokes on the other WW2 forums got wind of it, I won't be able to hold my head up in the sergeants mess.
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Jan 5, 2018 21:50:06 GMT
Part of life is making mistakes Ian. Part of living is not making the same mistake twice.
Were I you, I would be so embarrassed that I would hide under my bed, OR take a stiff drink, OR hide under the bed with the whole bottle. If you stay there long enough you will wonder about what mistake it was that drove you under the bed with the bottle. You will then emerge, none the worse for wear, having blotted the whole incident out of your mind, and that's where it should be.
|
|
|
Post by yanmacca on Jan 6, 2018 12:33:19 GMT
Yes Chuck, that would work!
Trouble with me is that I research a lot of stuff to do with WWII and I have people asking me for data, which I never ignore. So I have a lot going on in my head and divisional make-up from various nations makes up a bunch of it.
I do try and post questions that just pop into my head, example, why did Hitler place so much faith in the idiot Mussolini. Now if you look at a map of the Mediterranean circa 1940 and you will what I think made Adolph side with El Duce.
Staring in Europe from left to right you have;
Spain [fascist country] Southern France [Vichy controlled] Italy [Axis] Yugoslavia Greece Turkey [friendly with Germany]
Staring in Africa from left to right you have; Morocco [Vichy] Algeria [Vichy] Tunisia [Vichy] Libya [Italian] Egypt [British] Palestine [British] Syria [Vichy]
So except from Greece, Yugoslavia, Egypt and Palestine, the rest were virtually out of the war. Mussolini in is wisdom, had ideals on Yugoslavia and Greece plus he thought that he could steam roller the British in Egypt and also capture the vital Suez canal and on to Palestine. He also had nearly 400.000 military personnel in the horn of Africa, which would tie down the over stretched British who had men stationed all over the place. Wavell had under his command about 86.000 troops with 36.000 in Egypt, 27.500 in Palestine and the rest in various countries like British Somaliland etc. etc.
So if Hitler believed his pal El Duce, then he could forget about his southern flank and leave it to the Italians and Vichy. But the Italians had made such a hash of everything, that he had to divert forces to Libya and more importantly, postpone operation Barbarossa for four weeks to help out in the Balkans.
Apparently Von Kleist commented that the bulk of the German armour what had taken part in the Balkan campaign, needed overhauling and the crews needed a rest.
This four week postponement cost the Germans dear in their quest to capture Moscow as the weather turned bad, which stopped the advance. So who knows what might have happened if the Germans had another four weeks of dry weather.
|
|
|
Post by yanmacca on Jan 6, 2018 12:34:45 GMT
I don't know why half of my post has turned yellow, I have tried to change it back to white but it won't respond.
|
|
|
Post by yanmacca on Jan 6, 2018 12:51:00 GMT
Late last night I got out my bible on the German Panzer Divisions [German order of battle by George Nafziger] and noticed that the 15th panzer division had to transfer units to help build the 21st panzer. The book says that on September 1st 1941, that the 104th Schutzen Regiment along with the 15th Motorcycle Battalion were transfered. The 15th M/C went on to be the 3/104. Pz Gren Regt.
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Jan 6, 2018 18:12:25 GMT
Yes Ian, that is how I recall how the 5th Light coming into being. As I said above the armor and artillery, plus the 3rd Recon Battalion came from the 3rd Panzer, while the 104th Infantry (only a two battalion regiment) came from the 15th Panzer plus the motorcycle battalion.
The 15th Panzer was originally formed with 7 maneuver battalions, 2 tank, 4 Infantry, and the M/C battalion.
Both of these divisions (5L/21Pz and 15th Pz) were found to be grossly deficient in Infantry which led to the formation of the 90th Light (aka 90th Afrika) Division.
Why the Germans screwed around with machine gun and motorcycle battalions in North Africa has something I have always wondered about. I think both were gone, creating the third battalion for the 104th and 115th Motorized Infantry Regiments by the fall of 41. I suppose they were carry overs from a concept that worked fairly well in Europe. Just don't know.
|
|
|
Post by yanmacca on Jan 6, 2018 19:52:29 GMT
I wonder if they ever had designs on up-grading the 90th Light to full panzer division status. They had plans to add armour to the division, but events in Tunisia may have scuppered them and any new armoured units were directed to face the threat coming after Torch. link
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Jan 6, 2018 20:01:32 GMT
I don't think so Ian. They added a panzer battalion really late in Africa,around January of 43, and continued with the same numerically designated (190th) when they were later reformed after being destroyed in Tunisia.
The 90th Light is a strange organization. Looking at the order of battle it seems that all of the ash and trash in Africa was grouped under one flag and called the 90th Light
|
|
|
Post by yanmacca on Jan 7, 2018 12:01:19 GMT
The 90th Lt Div went through some changes, the Sonderverband 288 [288th Special Service Regiment] makes for interesting reading as it was the first unit in north Africa to receive StuG IIIs [about three only]. The 90th changed its name quite a few times;
June 1941: Divisions-Kommando z.b.V. Afrika August 1941: Division z.b.V. Afrika November 1941: 90. leichte-Infanterie-Division March 1942: 90. leichte-Afrika-Division
Chuck, the Germans soon upgraded the light divisions to full panzer, but only two never got the order and funny enough both served in North Africa.
1st Leichte Division [renamed 6th Panzer Division] 2nd Leichte Division [renamed 7th Panzer Division] 3rd Leichte Division [renamed 8th Panzer Division] 4th Leichte Division [renamed 9th Panzer Division] 5th Leichte Division Afrika [renamed 21st Panzer Division] 90th Leichte Afrika Division 164th Leichte Division
They also upgraded the motorized divisions too, well apart from one [36th Mot] which reverted back to infantry status.
2nd Motorized Infantry Division [renamed 12th Panzer Division] 3rd Motorized Infantry Division [renamed 3rd Panzergrenadier Division] 13th Motorized Infantry Division [renamed 13th Panzer Division] 16th Motorized Infantry Division [renamed 16th Panzergrenadier Division] 18th Motorized Infantry Division [renamed 13th Panzergrenadier Division] 20th Motorized Infantry Division [renamed 20th Panzergrenadier Division] 25th Motorized Infantry Division [renamed 25th Panzergrenadier Division] 29th Motorized Infantry Division [renamed 29th Panzergrenadier Division] 36th Motorized Infantry Division [renamed 36th Grenadier Division] 60th Motorized Infantry Division [renamed Panzergrenadier Division Feldherrnhalle]
The Germans still persisted with their Jäger divisions [12 in all], which contained two infantry regiments compared with the standard three in other infantry formations, amazingly some sources say that these divisions were equipped with mountain guns instead of field artillery, but were fully motorized at artillery and supply level.
You do see a lot of weak divisions as the war went on, probably due to lack of manpower and heavy equipment, the main ones are the Jäger, Volksgrenadier and Luftwaffe Field Divisions, which all lacked in the number of battalions and heavy artillery.
|
|
|
Post by yanmacca on Feb 24, 2018 11:54:18 GMT
Here is an interesting story concerning the battle of the bulge;
One night in early December 1944, Oberst Ludwig Heilmann [commander of the 5th Fallschirmjäger Division], Donned a Gefreiter [private] uniform and did his own solo reconnaissance of the American defenses. This was along the bank of the Our River across from the town of Roth, apparently he was the only man in his division who knew of the impending attack [even his men who manned the defenses, didn’t know who he was] and wanted to see for himself what lay ahead. He also was aware of the state of his division and how green most of his troops were, as they were only good for defensive operations, but now he had to lead them in a full blown attack.
The 5th FG Division, got a real mauling during the offencive, but this formation was full of men who had no combat experience at all.
Checkout Heilmann, he was quite a character and one of those commanders who never gets much recognition and is lost the list of battle commanders.
|
|
|
Post by yanmacca on Apr 28, 2018 10:19:02 GMT
Here is a break down of Colonel Ichiki's reinforced battalion on Guadalcanal.
HQ Detachment: 164 Men Battalion HQ (2nd Battalion, 28th Infantry): 23 men 1st Company: 105 men 2nd Company: 105 men 3rd Company: 105 men 4th Company: 105 men Machine gun Company (8 x Type 92 Heavy Machine guns): 110 men Battalion Gun Platoon (2 x 70mm Type 92 Battalion Guns): 50 men Engineer Company (1st company, 7th engineer construction Regiment): 150 men Total: 917 men
Around 100 men were left behind to guard Taiva point.
|
|
|
Post by yanmacca on Mar 29, 2019 14:09:10 GMT
I have been reading online the battle reports from the German SS 503rd Heavy Tank Battalion [Tiger Is] in Normandy. Here is a battle report by a certain Lt. Von Rosen and his Tiger company. I have highlited my favorite part in red, it shows how well trained and led the SS were and how strict their commander were. Leutnant von Rosen's Report on the Operations of the 3./schwere Panzer-Abteilung 503 on 11 July 1944
On 11 July 1944 a battalion messenger woke me up at 0500 hours: Prepare for immediate employment! I was ordered to the battalion command post. I rapidly issued my orders, briefed Leutnant Koppe and had the motorcycle take me to the command post. There Hauptmann Scherf gave me a quick briefing on the situation: Enemy tanks and infantry had succeeded in over-running the lines at Colombelles that had been held by a battalion of the 16. Luftwaffen feld division. The most recent report from the front stated that the enemy was already three kilometers northwest of Giberville. A strong massing of armor had been observed. The greatest possible speed was needed. I received the following mission:
The 3. /scbwere Panzer-Abteilung 503 is to eliminate by counterattack the enemy forces that have broken through, reestablish the former main line of resistance and hold that position until further orders are received. In the meantime at the company, engines had been warmed up and the tank commanders were waiting for my return at the command tank. Briefing the tank commanders went quickly and, within thirty minutes of the initial alert, the
company rolled at top speed toward Giberville. I led the company to the front, established contact at the outskirts of the village with the unit that was there and had good observation of the attack terrain from a roof gable. It was easy to make out several of the enemy tanks that were at a farmyard about two kilometers away.
I returned to the company, brought it up to date on the new situation and then ordered: ''Panzer Marsch! Move out!"
The first tank (Leutnant Koppe) had barely reached the northern outskirts of the village when it received heavy fire from enemy tanks. That resulted in a brief halt, but then the company deployed. The first platoon, under Feldwebel Sachs, sheared off to the left, the second platoon (Leutnant Koppe) to the right. I stayed even with both platoons. The third platoon (Leutnant Rambow) remained behind me. During that maneuver the tanks took a significant number of hits.
However, at that range, they could not do us much harm. I then gave the order over the radio to advance by alternating bounds. That meant one platoon would provide cover and fire while the other platoon advanced. However, there was no reaction to my order. I repeated it over the radio, but nobody stirred. Instead, my tanks were engaging the enemy.
At that great range, there was little that could happen to our tanks. It was easy to observe the effect of our fire on the enemy, however, thanks to the resulting clouds of dark smoke. After nothing had stirred on our side, I threatened over the radio to traverse my turret to 6 o'clock and open fire to the rear if people didn't move out immediately.
At the same time, enemy tank rounds continually struck my tank. At that point I saw through the vision slit of my command cupola that the antenna had been shot off my tank, resulting in the loss of radio contact. At that point it became clear why my orders had not been carried out. I had my tank move forward 300 meters in a single bound and, as I looked around me, I saw, to my relief, that the first platoon followed me while the second and third platoons kept firing. We then conducted the entire attack with no radio communication. All the maneuvers were automatic. One platoon secured and provided covering fire, the other moved forward in a single bound. Little more was to be seen of the enemy tanks, since the farm where they had taken position was then only a dark cloud of smoke.
The enemy infantry then withdrew with the aid of a smokescreen. As the smoke cleared somewhat, I spotted several enemy tanks. At that extremely short range, every round from our gun sent another Sherman up in flames. The crews bailed out of their yet undamaged tanks in terrified panic. We received no more fire and covered the final 200 meters in a single bound. We were in the farmstead and had regained the former main line of resistance. All of that had taken about 30 minutes.
I then regrouped the company for security in that open terrain. Scarcely had we more-or-less completed that movement when an artillery observation plane appeared overhead and we were pounded with a sudden barrage of artillery that overwhelmed the senses. That lasted for about two to three minutes. Then calm returned. We changed positions from time to time, sometimes 500 meters forward, sometimes 500 meters to the rear so as to avoid the artillery fire, which opened up with the next salvo about 20 minutes later. That's what we did, positioned like targets on a range, for eight hours until the infantry came forward and again occupied its former positions. My tank had taken a direct hit from the artillery.
Thank God the English were using super-quick fuses and, thank God, shortly before we left Germany the turret armor had been reinforced with a second armor plate. Inside the tank we received quite a blow. The lights went out and we were dazed for several moments. Several welded seams were broken in the armor, so that I had to switch to another tank.
During a long pause in the shelling, I took a somewhat closer look at the enemy tanks. Twelve Sherman tanks sat there, burned out. Most of them had 75mm guns, but several had the more modern 17 pounder (Sherman Firefly).
Four 57mm (6 pounder) antitank guns were knocked out. Then I spotted two undamaged Sherman’s among the houses of the farmstead. They had run into each other in the attempt to turn and had been abandoned by their crews. One of thosetanks was a command tank. Inside it I found a whole handful of annotated maps, radio documents, orders etc. I moved back by the fastest route to the battalion command post, which had been temporarily located at the railroad line at Demouville.
During the course of the morning, Hauptmann Fromme had arrived there, returned from the hospital in Paris. When I reported there, he gave me the mission, if possible, of bringing back both Sherman’s. I moved back to the front and got there just as the infantry arrived and relieved us. Leutnant Koppe led the company back to the old assembly area at Maneville, where everyone disappeared into the same position they had occupied previously. I stayed at the front with my tank and two drivers from the company maintenance section.
After a bit of experimentation, we got both Sherman’s running and disentangled. a modest distance, we moved back with the two Sherman’s, escorted by a Tiger. We felt that was a triumph.
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Mar 29, 2019 16:16:22 GMT
Excellent troop leading procedures.
Rosen gets up, alerts his second in command with a warning order, gets briefed himself, returns to his company, briefs them, moves out, stops to recon, attacks. By the book, by the book, buy the book.
I know this part is never as exciting as the actual shooting, but without this part, whatever else you do won't work.
|
|
|
Post by herosrest on Mar 29, 2019 16:24:33 GMT
It didn't matter how effectively the German Army operated or what revolutionary tactics they embraced and the armoured concept was borrowed. From the USA. The German what ever you wish to call it, was a headless chicken and that missing item was its leader. He delayed the inevitable and killed millions more doing it. Quality vs quantity, elan v git it done, massive production against interir supply lines - The German leader was something for which a word does not exist.
|
|
|
Post by herosrest on Mar 29, 2019 16:39:12 GMT
WWII ended with the deception which prevented Nazi forces being released to descend upon the invasion beaches. That gamble by the Allies was underpinned by opening a second front in the Med. He knew what was going to happen and could not give in. What's a word for that?
|
|