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Post by yanmacca on Aug 7, 2017 12:48:00 GMT
Can I just add a few points here, Chuck of course I value you knowledge and I think that your heart is in the right place, that is why your work graces my site.
But you know that I am a civilian, and the Indian accounts were written by civilians, so all I am doing is looking at this from a civilian angle.
Now it all depends which tribe you come from, if you are Cheyenne, then the soldiers made a stand were the stones are [on cemetery ridge], but if you are Sioux then the soldiers made a stand on the high ridge [Calhoun Hill], now the Suicide boys broke the stand on cemetery ridge and Lame White Man’s charge did the same with Calhoun’s men.
These are really only the two places out of a possible three, where the Indians say they made a stand, the third obviously is LSH, but these two stands broke into routes and men ran, the Indians say this themselves, it was a buffalo hunt.
The seventh was a badly trained regiment, made up of any one they could lay their hands on, it was a poor outfit and these men didn’t want to be here and certainly they didn’t want to be caught by the Indians, in fact they would be shitting themselves and who could blame them.
I would say that once Cemetery and Calhoun fell, these soldiers ran for their lives and only fought when they had nowhere to run.
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Post by quincannon on Aug 7, 2017 13:52:37 GMT
That is not what the Cheyenne say at all. Read JSIT again. Then look for that JSIT/Rickey map I mentioned.
At one time before the National Cemetery was established in its present location, the temporary location was on LSH and there were several rows of tombstones there on the east side of the 7th Cavalry Monument. They were transferred to that location from the old post cemetery at Fort Phil Kearny, and possibly others as well, I can't recall. That is why I mentioned earlier that depending upon when that hill with the stones statement was made it could have been LSH that was being referred to.
Also consider the artifacts and where they were found. They indicate that those five companies employed fire and maneuver from a number of positions. before the total position broke up and was overrun.
You point to what one or two Indians saw. Like everyone else in combat they see and report what is in front of them, what they are focused on, what they experienced. That does not mean what they have to say is a complete picture, in fact far from it.
Just take the Sharrow marker. Do you really think he was standing out there all alone, or would you not think he was with others when he was killed? He is not anywhere near Cemetery Ridge or LSH.
You must read what is said. That is a given. Then after reading you must try and use logic to establish a progression of events.
There are no bad regiments, only bad Colonels.
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Post by yanmacca on Aug 7, 2017 15:16:39 GMT
I have that map on file, and looking at it is points to a two pronged advance to Ney-Cartright, then the two prongs merge and ride as a whole to Willy's bend, then they all move to a place which looks like cemetery hill [but I thought that one time we were discussing the point that all five would occupy cemetery and that they held two features, BRE as well]. Then this group are splintered into three, with C & F going to LSH, I & L going to the Keogh sector and E going to deep ravine. It that how you see it?
So the 7th was a bad regiment because of Custer? I agree with that to point, but he had recently returned to the regiment and others like Lt. Col Sturgis and Maj. Reno were looking after the regiment, plus it was split up into separate companies and scattered all over Kansas in a constabulary role. One major point to consider is that these men couldn't shoot, that was not Custer's problem because the army only issued seven rounds per month per trooper for target practice.
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Post by quincannon on Aug 7, 2017 18:11:30 GMT
No. I see it as all five companies returning from the ford, occupying the first high ground to their rear which is CR and BRE. You cannot hold either one of those features without holding both. They then sorted themselves out into line of battle spread across those two features. They were gradually pushed back until they had to abandon those two features and the next available high ground to the south was the ridge that separates Deep Ravine from Cemetery Ravine. That ridge is very prominent but not as high as CR. It starts just below LSH and continues all the way to the river. As the ridge goes westward off of LSH it decreases in height until it reaches the place where the Company E markers are on SSL where it is barely a lip between the two ravines and it does not offer much in the way of defensive advantage.
I believe it is along this ridge, actually along the north face of it that a second line was formed consisting of at least four companies, in order west to east E-L-C-F. Company I may have been in that line as well, but I think it more probable that they were on the eastern slope of LSH guarding incursions around the right flank.
Here is why I think it was this way. When they came back from the river they needed high ground fast. They were not about to give up Cemetery Ridge because that feature is higher and dominates the basin of Cemetery Ravine which is the next and only other place a line addressing an attack from the northwest could be established.
The battle flowed at this point north to south, and the tipping point was probably when C and L pulled out of the middle of the line. The idea that movement southward by Companies C, I, and L was not planned, is nonsense. Their actions where there were finally run to ground indicate cohesive units under positive control until they reached those final positions.
Buffalo hunt. When three companies leave a line it probably does look something like a buffalo hunt to those who would be familiar with that description.
Hill with stones: It has been awhile since I have been to the battlefield, but I seem to remember stone outcroppings along Battle Ridge Extension. I think there may be some along the west face of Cemetery Ridge as well.
The 7th Cavalry was a bad regiment because the regimental commander Custer was a lazy good for nothing piece of shit who abandoned his responsibilities to his soldiers, and to his country in favor of shooting his mouth off to Congress, and clubbing in New York City. He had a month to whip that regiment into shape when he returned, and did nothing.
Ammunition: There are some rules you obey when you are about to go into combat, and some you just ignore. What would you do?
A fish rots from the head.
If anyone has the von Schmidt painting showing Custer getting whacked in the foreground that is on the park brochure, please post the damned thing. Half of Ian's problems could be cleared up with that one visual.
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Post by yanmacca on Aug 7, 2017 18:49:30 GMT
Problems? I didn't know I had any problems. I have written the epitaph for my tombstone though, "I TOLD YOU I WAS ILL" Here I have found the painting for both of us;
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Post by quincannon on Aug 7, 2017 19:05:32 GMT
OK, do you see those four towers of smoke just to the right of the guidon, look where that smoke originates from. That was where Company E was. Note the distance between that place and Custer.
Note that hill on the right. That is Cemetery Ridge. Also note how it dominates the terrain below it.
The Indians coming toward Custer from the left that seemingly come out of the ground, are coming out of the north fork of Deep Ravine.
The area in between is the lip ridge coming off of LSH and extending to the river. Company E is at the bottom of that ridge.
The area between the ridge and Cemetery Ridge is Cemetery Ravine. It is deeper now than what is shown in the painting, and to mu eye Deep Ravine is not as deep now, at that place shown in the painting.
That painting is known for two things, the Custer view rather than the Indian view you see with most of the art works, and it is also considered the most accurate portrayal of terrain,
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Post by yanmacca on Aug 7, 2017 19:13:57 GMT
That does show the real extent of the field looking down from battle ridge.
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Post by quincannon on Aug 7, 2017 19:41:32 GMT
I just wish that someone would do a cycloramic painting like at Gettysburg or Atlanta with Custer as the centerpiece of a 360 degree view of the battle.
No one ever will because there is too much disputing of facts to make any such very time consuming effort worthwhile.
All you will ever see are noncontroversial snipits of what was a large fight over a very large area.
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Post by yanmacca on Aug 7, 2017 19:48:41 GMT
Terrain is everything when you study any battlefield, no matter how large. If you know how the commanders worked and how they used the terrain, then it can make the field turn from a grassy patch of real estate to a history lesson.
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Post by Beth on Aug 7, 2017 20:06:13 GMT
I just wish that someone would do a cycloramic painting like at Gettysburg or Atlanta with Custer as the centerpiece of a 360 degree view of the battle. No one ever will because there is too much disputing of facts to make any such very time consuming effort worthwhile. All you will ever see are noncontroversial snipits of what was a large fight over a very large area. Ah but if we all agreed on what happened at LBH then we would have nothing to talk about and have never meant even if it is only through a message board. There will never be proof of what exactly happened, only 'more likely than not' scenarios that have evolved with time especially due to archaeological battlefield work. Personally I feel we are ahead of the curve when it comes to the next best theory because it actually makes sense. There will always be people who continue to stubbornly hold onto old ways of thinking in every aspect of life, they just get left further behind in the dust.
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Aug 8, 2017 23:46:50 GMT
No. I see it as all five companies returning from the ford, occupying the first high ground to their rear which is CR and BRE. You cannot hold either one of those features without holding both. They then sorted themselves out into line of battle spread across those two features. They were gradually pushed back until they had to abandon those two features and the next available high ground to the south was the ridge that separates Deep Ravine from Cemetery Ravine. That ridge is very prominent but not as high as CR. It starts just below LSH and continues all the way to the river. As the ridge goes westward off of LSH it decreases in height until it reaches the place where the Company E markers are on SSL where it is barely a lip between the two ravines and it does not offer much in the way of defensive advantage. I believe it is along this ridge, actually along the north face of it that a second line was formed consisting of at least four companies, in order west to east E-L-C-F. Company I may have been in that line as well, but I think it more probable that they were on the eastern slope of LSH guarding incursions around the right flank. Here is why I think it was this way. When they came back from the river they needed high ground fast. They were not about to give up Cemetery Ridge because that feature is higher and dominates the basin of Cemetery Ravine which is the next and only other place a line addressing an attack from the northwest could be established. The battle flowed at this point north to south, and the tipping point was probably when C and L pulled out of the middle of the line. The idea that movement southward by Companies C, I, and L was not planned, is nonsense. Their actions where there were finally run to ground indicate cohesive units under positive control until they reached those final positions. Buffalo hunt. When three companies leave a line it probably does look something like a buffalo hunt to those who would be familiar with that description. Hill with stones: It has been awhile since I have been to the battlefield, but I seem to remember stone outcroppings along Battle Ridge Extension. I think there may be some along the west face of Cemetery Ridge as well. I like the notion that Company I were to the east. I agree with the broad spacing suggested especially the locations for Companies E and F in the defensive line. There is no doubt that the "collapse point" came after the departure of Companies L and then C followed by I. Colt gave us a scheme of manoeuvre in the 5 companies thread QC how does this compare to your picture? I guess specifically the release process for the withdrawing companies. The bold section is absolutely correct for any understanding of the battle. Cheers
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Post by quincannon on Aug 8, 2017 23:56:23 GMT
I did not go back and look at what Colt wrote, but Colt is a pro, and while we may differ on the teensy-weensy we generally agree on most things, and I would give the bow to him that he as a mobile commander may do it slightly different than I would, but our intent would be the same general result.
I find myself agreeing with my own words, but I do, and I think it so important in that it dispels the notion that after they were driven off the first high ground that the defense fell apart. It would soon enough after, as those three companies departed, but not before.
I see no reason to stray far from L-C-I in that order
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benteen
First Lieutenant
"Once An Eagle
Posts: 406
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Post by benteen on Aug 9, 2017 16:03:20 GMT
Can I just add a few points here, Chuck of course I value you knowledge and I think that your heart is in the right place, that is why your work graces my site. But you know that I am a civilian, and the Indian accounts were written by civilians, so all I am doing is looking at this from a civilian angle. Now it all depends which tribe you come from, if you are Cheyenne, then the soldiers made a stand were the stones are [on cemetery ridge], but if you are Sioux then the soldiers made a stand on the high ridge [Calhoun Hill], now the Suicide boys broke the stand on cemetery ridge and Lame White Man’s charge did the same with Calhoun’s men. These are really only the two places out of a possible three, where the Indians say they made a stand, the third obviously is LSH, but these two stands broke into routes and men ran, the Indians say this themselves, it was a buffalo hunt. The seventh was a badly trained regiment, made up of any one they could lay their hands on, it was a poor outfit and these men didn’t want to be here and certainly they didn’t want to be caught by the Indians, in fact they would be shitting themselves and who could blame them. I would say that once Cemetery and Calhoun fell, these soldiers ran for their lives and only fought when they had nowhere to run. Ian, Fine post, well said. Be Well Dan
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Post by yanmacca on Aug 9, 2017 16:18:47 GMT
Hi Dan, how they hanging my old chum, nice to see you posting.
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Post by quincannon on Aug 9, 2017 16:20:20 GMT
Balderdash Benteen. Everything he said was either incomplete, out of context of the whole, or not at all in accordance with the testimony of the people he points to.
You really need to inform yourself more before you do any more agreeing.
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