A Wee Bit to Chew On

[deadwoodgultch]

The words of Mrs. Spotted Horn Bull:

"Down the Greasy Grass river * * * over across from the camps of the Cheyennes and the Sans Arcs, there is an easy crossing * * *. From Long Hair's movements the Sioux warriors knew that he had planned to strike the camp of my people from the lower end as Reno struck it from the upper end. Even the women * * * saw that Reno had struck too early * * *.

"From a hill behind the camp at first, and then from the bank of the river, I watched the men of our people plan to overthrow the soldiers of the Great Father; and before a shot was fired, I knew that no man who rode with Long Hair would go back to tell the tale of the fight that would begin when the soldiers approached the river * * *.

"From across the river I could hear the music of the bugle and could see the column of soldiers turn to the left, to march down to the river to where the attack was to be made. All I could see was the warriors of my people. They rushed like the wind through the village, going down the ravine as the women went out to the grazing ground to round up the ponies. It was done very quickly. * * *

"Our chiefs and the young men rode quickly down to the end of the village, opposite to the hill upon which now stands the great stone put up by the whites where Long Hair fell. Between that hill and the soldiers was a ravine which started from the river opposite the camp of the Sans Arcs, and ran all the way around the butte. To get to the butte Long Hair must cross the ravine; but from where he was marching with his soldiers, he could not see into the ravine nor down to the banks of the river. The warriors of my people * * * had joined * * * on our side of the Greasy Grass and opposite the opening into the ravine. Soon I saw a number of Cheyennes ride into the river, then some men of my band, then others, until there were hundreds of warriors in the river and running up into the ravine. When some hundreds had passed the river and gone into the ravine, the others who were left, still a very great number, moved back from the river and waited for the attack. And I knew that the fighting men of the Sioux, many hundreds in number, were hidden in the ravine behind the hill upon which Long Hair was marching, and he would be attacked from both sides * * *.

"Pizi (Gall) and many of his young men had re-crossed the Greasy Grass River after the white men had been driven off or killed in the earlier engagement * * * where he with some of our warriors had been shooting at the soldiers, who were chased to the hill, * * *. When Pizi (Gall) re-crossed the river, many women followed his party, and we heard him tell his men to frighten the horses of the soldiers, which were held in small bunches. With shoutings that we could hear across the river, the young men stampeded the horses and the women captured them * * *. The Indians fought the soldiers with bullets taken from the first party that attacked the village, and many rode the horses captured from the white men, who had fled to the hill. * * * I remained with many other women along the bank of the Greasy Grass River. I saw Crazy Horse lead the Cheyennes into the water and up the ravine; Crow King and the Hunkpapa went after them; and then Gall, who had led his young men and killed the soldiers he had been fighting further up the river, rode along the bench by the river to where Long Hair had stopped with his men.

"I cannot remember the time. * * * The river was in sight from the battle, and while the whoop still rung in our ears, two Cheyennes tried to cross the river and one of them was shot and killed by Long Hair's men. Then the men of the Sioux nation, led by Crow King, Hump, Crazy Horse, and many chiefs, rose up on all sides of the hill, and the last we could see from our side of the river was a great number of gray horses. The smoke of the shooting and the dust of the horses shut out the hill, and the soldiers fired many shots, but the Sioux shot straight and the soldiers fell dead. The women crossed the river after the men of our village, and when we came to the hill there were no soldiers living and Long Hair lay dead among the rest. There were more than two hundred dead soldiers on the hill, and the boys of the village shot many who were already dead, for the blood of the people was hot and their hearts bad, and they took no prisoners that day."

[quincannon]

I think we have all seen maps indicating tribal circles, and most of them end a good way before you get to Ford D.

I wonder how much the idea of Ford B being the place that Custer first struck influenced the marking and defining the locations of those tribal circles?

If you look at what this person has to say, then it brings all those tribal circle marked locations into great question.

[colt45]

I agree, Chuck. The tribal circles could have been originally placed based upon the belief that ford B was where Custer attempted to cross. I think I remember some accounts showing the Cheyenne camps further north that the vicinity of ford B. If this is what happened, then for 141 years everyone has been working off bad data with regards to the north end of the village.

[yanmacca]

Yes it could have been more like this;

[yanmacca]

Having said that I am sure that the village relocated at some point and if I am not mistaken, the bonifed map mentions something about this and the location.

[quincannon]

Putting the village depiction on this map aside for a moment. I first looked at the maneuver depicted and said this guy must be smoking bad dope. Then:

Remove all the labels (Yates-Custer) and then remove the terrain. Concentrate only of the routes depicted, then move those routes north and center them on the Ford D area. Note the coming together, then the arrow going off to the north.

I am going to assume that map is from Gray, and that he probably based it on testimony. Can we take that same testimony and apply it to another place and have some degree of validity?

I am not sure if I am being clear. Not sure if I think it may be clear. Ask and I will try and gather something that may make some sense

[yanmacca]

Chuck, do you want me to make a new map from google earth and just transpose those routes onto it with out all the other markings?
If so leave me with any details you think may help me and I will have a go tomorrow morning, as it is half past midnight over here.

[quincannon]

No, what I have in mind is two elements of the Custer battalion making something like those two loops depicted on that map up near Ford D.

Seems to me that such a thing might fit into Custer's battalion moving away from D and assembling on high ground.

[yanmacca]

I don't know how that would work, unless you turned it inside out.
You could draw a line indicating one formation [Yates battalion or whatever], making a sweeping move or loop down to ford D and then swinging north then east and uniting with the other formation [Custer regiment or whatever] on the high ground, then initiating a withdrawal, something like this;

[yanmacca]

Does anyone have any ideas about both F and E making it to LSH virtually intact? [well not entirely intact, E Company would have lost its horse holders and all of its horses and maybe a few on Cemetery Ridge, but the rump actually made it to LSH].

The theory is [and it is nothing new by the way], that the E Company men tried to reach the river and got pushed into the ravine were 28 bodies were found and not forced there from Cemetery Ridge.

I have always held reservations about F and E being divided in this way, and I think that both Companies ended up holding ground on the slope of Battle Ridge.

[quincannon]

There was a map posted here by someone that showed a battle position of five companies in line on an axis of Last Stand Hill to where the markers for I guess E are down near the river end of Deep Ravine. The line generally runs the entire length of Cemetery Ravine.

I do recall F being on LSH, C in the middle, and E way down by the river. The other two companies were there as well, but cannot recall where I and L fit in.

What I do not know is what phase of the battle this was meant to portray, but it would seem to me these position must have been a second attempt to form a line.

I do not know why you would have reservations about E and F being separated. The only reason is that you are sticking with this Yates battalion business, and there is no evidence that Yates commanded anything more than his own company.

[yanmacca]

Chuck I never agreed anything about a Yates battalion, it was on that map which I posted, that is why I said in brackets [Yates battalion or whatever], I do think that Custer held overall control over F and E and used them in some role.
Plus one thing we have not mentioned is the reason why Smith was on LSH, that would also show tha E Company was on that slope and not in the ravine, well not yet anyway.

Is this that map?

[quincannon]

No that is not the map. The map was from an Indian source and showed five companies in line.

Smith could have been on LSH for any number of reasons, and his presence there does not necessarily mean Company E was there. There is no evidence to support Company E being anywhere but Cemetery Ridge and at the bottom of Cemetery Ravine.

There is no evidence to support Custer held control of Companies E and F, as differentiated from him exercising control of the entire battalion. NONE.

The fact is that all this Keogh and Yates battalion business has been so ingrained in all of our minds for so long that it is hard to mentally break free from. The only available evidence (Godfrey) says that there was but one battalion, and that battalion was made up of five companies and in was commanded by LTC Custer. That is what the evidence says. Everything else ranges from raw speculation to fairy story.

[yanmacca]

Well as Sherlock says "the facts Watson, the facts"
Right there is no evidence like you said of E company being on LSH
The Indians say that the grey horse soldiers were on the hill with the stones or whatever
Now who ordered them there, who actually asked these men to stand on a hill with no support and no cover to hold the place, surly this came from above and I don't mean Eric Clapton [he is known as god by the way]
The order came from Custer.
So why pick out E Company, what about F or C, we will never know, but I think they got the nod because they were close to HQ and were available.

[quincannon]

That's right, only the facts.

The hill with the stones. When was this said? It does make a difference.

Who said they were asked to stand on a hill with no support? You don't know that to be a fact. In fact you do not know they were alone at all. They most likely were not. In fact it is nearly certain they were not. If you look at the available evidence, the most likely thing is that there were two lines formed, the first across Cemetery and Battle Ridge extended oriented generally north west, and a second still facing generally northwest, bounded by the the river and Last Stand Hill. It is then most likely this line broke in the process of trying to withdraw southward.

All of the orders came from Custer.

I still do not understand what you are saying about Company E. Available for what? There is no evidence they were close to Custer. There is evidence that they were up to 500 meters or more away from Custer. You can only go on what the evidence tells you. What are you trying to suggest??? Then prove it by the available evidence.