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Post by yanmacca on Aug 6, 2017 9:14:41 GMT
If E company was supported then how come they were cut off and forced into a ravine, you say facts well seeing that none of these companies ended up together as a fighting unit say something? because that is a fact, they didn't. We speculate a lot on these boards, every one us in fact, we have all made assumptions and if the wind in blowing in there favour or they are held high then their assumptions are generally excepted or tweaked a little. If E company was in trouble then there must have been a shit load of hostiles between them and Custer because none of them made it to LSH, but on the other hand some of the men from I,L & C did make through the killing ground known as the Keogh sector. I would guess and say that the Keogh survivors ran like the devil himself to reach their commander, so why didn't Smiths men do the same? Plus I have never sat comfortably with the notion that I,L & C left a few behind as cover, if these companies had a head start on the Indians they would take it, and if all the assumptions we have been debating is true, they they would have rode behind F and E and used them as cover, they were between them and the river.
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Post by quincannon on Aug 6, 2017 14:37:21 GMT
I honestly do not know what you are trying to say.
You are trying to connect Company E and Company F with no evidence to do it. The only thing that makes them similar is that both were left behind for some PURPOSE or REASON while three other companies attempted to get away.
You have no idea if anyone ran like the devil to reach Keogh. Where is your evidence.
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Post by yanmacca on Aug 6, 2017 14:47:10 GMT
The trail of markers and the few men from I,L & C who were found on LSH, this looks very much like a desperate move to reach LSH, just look at the markers. You hit the nail on the head, the reason E and F were in the area could have been to let the others escape, that is two weak companies with a combined strength of around 75 men. Place one of these companies on a hill and take out the horse holders and they will not last long, especially if the horses are in another place. The only real reason why the 28 survivors from this company of 37 ran towards the river and the enemy, is because the way to LSH was blocked. Why was this unit not supported by F, because F was obviously being pressured, in which case E company should never have been left on the hill
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Post by quincannon on Aug 6, 2017 15:51:42 GMT
Ian the horse holders of Company E were taken out while the whole battalion was positioned on CR and BRE. That is where you are going wrong. The battalion probably fell back to the secondary position as a result of Company E having to fall back. Company E fell back to where those markers now are at the bottom of Cemetery Ravine. They were the left flank unit of that second line which initially contained all five companies. E was on the left, the next was probably L, then C, finally F in that order with I most likely to the right rear of F. When L then C pulled out that left a gaping hole between E and F that is five or six hundred meters wide.
You are making an assumption that E was left alone on Cemetery Hill and evidence and testimony dispute that.
I know I have said this before, and it sparked resentment on your part, but if you could stand there and see this on the ground, with artifact locations in hand, it is rather easy to see how this thing probably played out. Look at that colored map you posted yesterday. Do you think Kellogg and Sharrow were out in those places all by themselves? That colored map tells the tale of what happened if you know what to look for, to someone who has been there. Not so much if you only have a map and pictures to go on. Maps and pictures tend to compress distances, and that is a liability at LBH or anywhere in the American West.
There is a place not far from me along a road on the edge of the prairie, where you can see bluffs in the distance. From that road it looks to be only a mile or so to the bluffs, but in actuality it is more than six miles. Maps do not adequately tell you the lay of the land out here when the contour interval is 20 meters, and photos make features appear much closer together than they actually are.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Aug 6, 2017 16:46:28 GMT
I know I have not participated much in the above discussion, but I have 2 questions. 1. Which way were the troopers between LSH and the Keogh sector headed and were they unhorsed or moving on foot? 2. Could the 28 found in the ravine have been pushed there or sought cover there? I know not the best option for cover, but, the best available!
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Post by quincannon on Aug 6, 2017 17:13:47 GMT
1) Regarding LSH to Keogh sector probably a combination of both, but more likely that most were mounted. LSH itself was probably a lifeboat itself for many who had become dismounted or just caught with no other place to go.
2) If you are pushed off of Cemetery Ridge, and the defining means of that push is having your horses located near the Superintendent's house run off, then the only place to go is down off the south side of Cemetery Ridge, across Cemetery Ravine to what little cover the lip ridge between Cemetery Ravine and Deep Ravine offers. No it is far from ideal, but the only game in town. The same could be said for any of the other companies that were pushed off what appears to be their first position, particularly Companies L (remember the Tweed body find) and C. Company F probably came to LSH buy a slightly different route, but for the same reason. I just don;t have a handle on Company I enough for any speculation. They were probably near LSH before any of the rest were forced to move but there is no evidence to say one way or the other.
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Post by yanmacca on Aug 6, 2017 17:25:16 GMT
Chuck, I have forgotten about that whole escapade from a few months back, but it is hard to walk among ex-service people and folks who have visited the battlefield and get your voice heard, sometimes I do try a little too hard to get my point over, but you know me well enough to know that I hold no animosity against people who I like and respect.
Back to brass tacks;
In my minds eye I can not imagine all five companies stationery on BRE and Cemetery, if they did I would guess that it was only till they all arrived and then the made their next move, because I would guess that any commander would be planning his next move as he rode, so if they did all arrive on these feature, then it would be brief as Custer would have had them moving again pretty quick.
So to allow for this move some companies would be deployed as cover and I would guess that the ones chosen would be the companies closest to the river and nearest to Custer himself.
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Post by quincannon on Aug 6, 2017 17:50:32 GMT
I don't know why you cannot envision it. It was the first high ground away from the river. It was the first logical place to try and defend or at least dispute. There is also the factor of needing an immediate place to regain control after the adventure to the river. Makes all the sense in the world.
Would the commander be planning the next move? Not necessarily. If Custer could have held these features there was no need to move anywhere. It was the growing amount of combat power that was being arrayed against him and the mounting threat to both his right and left flanks that forced him to move back. The running off of Company E horses may have been the straw that broke the camels back, or it may very well have been that Company E was to be last out in moving to that second line, and they lost their horses just prior to making that move.
Military units in retrograde normally move by bounds and there is always a last out, and often that last out gets chewed up more than the rest. That may have been the case with Company E. We have no evidence to tell us one way or the other.
I do not believe you are still getting the picture here. There were two battalion level movements away from the enemy with intent to retrograde. The first was from an initial position of a line that spread out over Cemetery Ridge and Battle Ridge Extension. That line moved probably by bounds to a second line that extended from LSH southwestward to down near the river. The anchor points of that line were Company F on LSH and Company E about six hundred meters away down near the river. There were at least two companies in between E and F. Those two companies pulled out leaving a hole between E and F that you could drive a brigade through. Those companies leaving are what broke the sencod line. Other evidence, the final locations of Companies C and L and the actions surrounding those locations tell us that any such move away from that second line was a planned event. A retrograde, but as it turned out it became an attempted breakout that could not be executed.
The salient point about the past escapade is that you most probably would have voiced different opinions had you had the opportunity to visit and walk the place. You do not need military experience to do it. Mac has none that I know of and I know he changed his opinions greatly after being there, and no longer having to rely on maps and photos.
The ones that eventually did provide cover had little to no choice in the matter. There was no choosing. It was totally an event of circumstance. Once Company E lost their horses they were dead meat. They were a half a mile from Custer's known position. Company F had no choice either. They had to stay in place keeping the route open for C, then L, then I. Company E in their final position was not covering anyone.
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Post by yanmacca on Aug 6, 2017 18:00:23 GMT
I know I have not participated much in the above discussion, but I have 2 questions. 1. Which way were the troopers between LSH and the Keogh sector headed and were they unhorsed or moving on foot? 2. Could the 28 found in the ravine have been pushed there or sought cover there? I know not the best option for cover, but, the best available! Tom, we discussed the other day on how Thompson and Watson decided to head for the trees to find cover and Reno's me also sought sanctuary in the trees, so what if the goal in the mind of the E Company men was to reach the trees in an attempt to find cover and defend themselves better, not much better though, but these men would be desperate.
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Post by quincannon on Aug 6, 2017 18:43:01 GMT
And what if the Sugar Plumb Fairy decided to go with the Cow that jumped over the moon.
There was a bluff in the way of those trees Ian.
Do you read the stuff I post Ian or do you just wonder along without any idea of what tactical integrity is? Company E lost their horses but they were far from desperate as long as that second line held. When the second line failed to hold, desperate was then putting it mildly.
Company E came down off Cemetery Ridge as an organized body that was still part of a defensive line. The twenty eight men running willy nilly out of fear and desperation is a FAIRY TALE. Twenty eight men, or eight, or eight hundred, do not stay together in a state of fear and panic. They spread to the four winds, because of fear and panic. You must understand how humans react to understand battle. If fear and panic set in as the fairy tales suggest they would not have stayed together. Christ even Wagner thinks this was an organized controlled movement. We differ only in the starting place. My starting place is built on logical progression, where his is built upon 28 men running half a mile unscathed though Indian held territory on foot for some not discernible, in fact unfathomable reason. Wagner read the Landmark book for kids "Custer's Last Stand" far to many times when he was ten.
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Post by yanmacca on Aug 6, 2017 18:54:35 GMT
No need to be rude Chuck, how long have e known each other, of course I read your posts, that is a tad disrespectful, the post was actually meant for Tom.
What is the second line? do you mean any defense line put up by E company after they lost there horses and saw their friends up yonder on LSH with area behind them being filled by Indians?
What did C Company do when it too was in a similar predicament, they ran up hill to L Company, now I don't think that this move was controlled, can you actually see them firing in bounds on their way up?
We don't know if they came off that hill as an organized body, we know that 28 bodies were found, even this is open to debate and the which ravine too was disputed.
They must have saw a tree line, which looks more appealing then a death trap of an open feature like a ravine, I guess where ever they ran they were never far from hostiles trying to kill them.
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Post by quincannon on Aug 6, 2017 19:10:05 GMT
I am not being rude.
You obviously either do not read or do not understand. Perhaps both. I have mentioned a second line at least three or four times in these last two pages, and you still ask what is the second line. WHAT ELSE AM I TO THINK?
THE SECOND LINE IS A LINE ANCHORED BY COMPANY E ON THE LEFT AND DOWN BY THE RIVER, AND COMPANY F ON LAST STAND HILL WITH COMPANIES C AND L IN BETWEEN IN THE CENTER, AND COMPANY I's LOCATION UNKNOWN BUT PROBABLY TO THE RIGHT REAR OF F. THAT SECOND LINE WAS PUT IN PLACE AFTER THE FIRST LINE CONSISTING OF ALL FIVE COMPANIES WERE DRIVEN FROM THEIR INITIAL POSITIONS SPREAD OVER CEMETERY RIDGE AND BATTLE RIDGE EXTENSION. How may times do I have to write this?
YES we do know that Company E came off of that hill as an organized body. How do we know. First because they were on that hill together, and Second they were found together. Anything else than them being an organized body coming off that hill is illogical.
You do not know what they say, and that tree line is along the river below the bluff, that only has one access, that being a ravine that leads through the bluff down to that river, and is very narrow, and yes a death trap. The is a least a 100 foot difference in elevation and probably more.
Ian you must assume tactical integrity was maintained by this entire battalion at this point. There is no reason to assume otherwise.
The Map I referred to earlier that shows all of this is JSIT/Rickey and is on the Custer Moves to Ford D with five companies thread. It was discussed when first posted and you participated in the discussion.
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Post by yanmacca on Aug 6, 2017 19:14:22 GMT
Chuck, look at the times on our posts, I wrote the reply for Tom before I even read yours, I am not going to change that after I wrote it.
Sod this lark, I am going log off quick and watch TV before I turn in, I have work tomorrow as this is going to spiral out of control again.
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Post by quincannon on Aug 6, 2017 19:21:21 GMT
I don't care if you change it. Just read and absorb what has been said in the entire of the two pages of this thread.
Tom wrote what he wrote to elicit response, two points of clarification. He wrote of movement and he wrote of cover. In writing about cover he knows quite well where those Company E markers are. He also knows cover is little to nothing there, and also little is better than nothing. He is also quite well aware that there is absolutely nothing between Cemetery Ridge and where those markers are. Everyone else who reads this does not know either of those facts. Some who have been there do, but most, those who have not, do not.
It will only spiral out of control if you let it.
If I wanted it to spiral out of control I would get pretty damned mad that I am apparently wasting my time trying to both be your eyes on a place you have never been and being your tactical tutor and you ignoring every goddamned thing I have to say as you continue on a course of flights of fancy.
What am I to think when I repeatedly say something you seem to either not understand or do not wish to understand.
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Post by Beth on Aug 7, 2017 0:42:04 GMT
Gentlemen, please I know I am late to this debate but it is important to check time stamps on messages. Often times the conversation can move quickly and something said to one message can take on a different meaning. I would suggest that quoting the part of the message you are responding to helps prevent some of the problems we occasionally encounter.
I know that personally I appreciate it because I tend to get lost at times in a conversation.
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