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Post by deadwoodgultch on Oct 14, 2017 11:05:31 GMT
Interesting question above, Ian, Benteen may have divided the NA attention, but save GAC, no. It would only have added to those who died with their boots on, if he had continued forward. He, probably would have been the next domino before Reno.
How many times do we have to hear what happened to Crook, just a week before at the hands of the same NA's. Crook had roughly 400-500 more troops, the NA's lost very few, and they were not fighting for hearth and home.
Regards, Tom
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Post by yanmacca on Oct 14, 2017 14:33:48 GMT
Well Tom, I agree that no matter how many troopers the seventh could have put on that ridge, they still wouldn't have beat the Indians. But we have been working on the notion of L, I and C trying to make it back south and in their efforts being stopped as they reached deep coulee and forced to defend. Now would they have gotten through if four or five companies were across the other side giving them support, well we shall never know, maybe if only a fraction had made it, and everyone then went back to Reno hill, we would have known what went wrong and who went where.
It would have been too late for Custer and E and F, maybe even I, but maybe those lead companies could have had a slim chance.
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Post by quincannon on Oct 14, 2017 16:42:47 GMT
Now you know why I have no use for published internal time lines.
No one on God's green earth knows where any of Custer's elements were when Benteen reached Reno Hill and initially joined up with him. NO ONE. They are speculating. What is worse is that based upon their speculation they then build these fantastical scenarios of how Benteen could and should have helped/saved Custer.
Let's take it then as gospel that Benteen did arrive at Reno Hill and went directly north to aid Custer's battalion. Let us further speculate that Benteen arrived at Weir or L-N-C in time to support and save some of C-I-L, and did not reach Custer with E and F.
Going back to the original question then, had Benteen gone forward, would there have been any less criticism of him by Fluffy and the Fanboys? NO, A THOUSAND TIME NO. He still would not have saved Custer. Saving Custer are the operative words surrounding the criticism, not saving remnants of three companies, or even five. If they did not save Custer (the man) you would have still heard the same thing, BETRAYAL
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Post by yanmacca on Oct 14, 2017 18:59:36 GMT
Fluffy jumped on the band wagon and did what a lot of writers and news papers did and rake in the dosh. I can't blame her for that but to drag others into the mix and try to discredit them is too much for me and for that I kick her into the long grass and forget about her. She certainly built up George to be this perfect officer and gentleman, but off the field of soldiering he was a gambling scoundrel who loved the affections of other woman, so less than perfect to me. I bet also that she never mentioned anything about him going AWOL either, that to me is like deserting, something that George wanted to shoot private soldiers for doing.
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Post by quincannon on Oct 14, 2017 19:38:08 GMT
In Michigan she was the daughter of a small town business man. Maybe a big fish by small town standards but in Michigan she swam in a very small pond.
When she married Custer she became a larger fish in a very large pond, but still were it not for Custer's fame, she would have just as well been slinging hash in a beer joint in Hoot and Holler, Nebraska, because the fame was his and she was only in fame and recognition's orbit.
Once Georgie got whacked, her meal ticket pushing up daisies, in order to maintain herself in the style she enjoyed, she had to create controversy. From that moment on she collected on manufactured hero worship.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Oct 14, 2017 21:31:24 GMT
Don't you ever belittle Hoot and Holler, NE on this board! It is like taking a shot at the North Brothers!
Regards, Tom
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dave
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,679
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Post by dave on Oct 15, 2017 1:26:48 GMT
Ian You mentioned that Custer's service record was cherry picked by Libbie and his stalwarts. His actions post 1865 were ignored and only his flashes of glory remembered. James Longstreet gave GAC gave short shrift outside Appomattox Courthouse: "Finally, Yankee troops under Philip Sheridan blocked the Rebels’ path. Sheridan sent in the gaudy “boy general” George Armstrong Custer under a flag of truce to call for capitulation. Custer, brought before Longstreet, blurted out his demand for unconditional surrender “in the name of General Sheridan.” Old Pete coldly looked the boy general over, told him that he was not in command of this army, “and if I were, I would not surrender it to General Sheridan,” and waved him away."* I assure you that Libbie and her cohorts never mentioned that little instance in all their padding of Custer's career. Regards Dave * www.americanheritage.com/content/general-longstreet-and-lost-cause (Stephen W. Sears)
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Post by quincannon on Oct 15, 2017 4:45:18 GMT
That little tidbit is one I have never heard before Dave. No wonder Fluffy did not want that out, or she would have been slinging hash in a beer joint in Hoot and Holler, Nebraska.
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Post by yanmacca on Oct 15, 2017 9:53:28 GMT
When you say "Hash" do you mean "Hashish" or do they serve up corned beef hash in these joints; link
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Post by quincannon on Oct 15, 2017 15:12:37 GMT
Hash, as in food.
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Post by yanmacca on Oct 15, 2017 15:19:38 GMT
Yeah I thought that is what you meant, but it is easy for some to come to a different conclusion when they see hash and joint in the same sentence.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Oct 15, 2017 23:46:37 GMT
Ian, Chuck has never been to Hoot and Holler. And, does not know hash from Shinola!
Regards, Tom
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Post by Beth on Oct 16, 2017 22:07:43 GMT
First seriously are there people who actually like hash?
Second, I forgot to quote it but Ian mentioned Fluffy (perhaps we should use Mrs. Fluffy?) jumped on the bandwagon. I have to disagree-she was the band leader not a follower. I do sympathize that her lot when Custer died was a horrible place. There was no safety net for widows and orphans back then and Custer left her in terrible financial straits as well has having previously spent her inheritance from her father. She had two options, living as a dependent probably on the Custer family until she remarried or find a way to earn her own income, which she did.
My objection to her methods were that she destroyed the careers of good men and polluted history for generations. I find that unforgivable. She could have brought everyone in the 7th on to glory just as she did GAC but instead chose either intentionally or through ignorance place blame were it was not deserved.
She also played the 'poor widow' card much longer than she should of. She made a fortune off of Custer's legacy. I wonder if she ever privately realized that her life was much more lucrative without GAC than it ever would have been with.
That is not to say that you wouldn't spend a lifetime missing a spouse because at the end of the day, all the money in the world nor living in a very fine house does not fill that empty space next to you in bed when the lights are turned off.
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Post by quincannon on Oct 17, 2017 4:43:26 GMT
Another thing that people do not realize is that Madam Fluffy through her efforts to manufacture fame for Custer also elevated the 7th Cavalry to a legendary status in the eyes of the American public that it really does not deserve.
Reality is that the 7th Cavalry during its entire history as a tactical regiment was for the most part rated between also ran and mediocre as a combat organization, and for about a twenty five year period was at the bottom of the barrel 1866- 1891. It sat out the Span Am and WWI, and in WWII was adequate, but no better than any other regiment in the 1st Cavalry Division.
In Korea it got a very bad start under a very poor commander. That changed when Billy Harris, ironically a Field Artillery officer took command. For about a year under Harris the 7th Cavalry was a sterling performer.
The regiment as a tactical unit ceased to exist in 1957 with the ROCID reorganization, and the concurrent Combat Arms Regimental System. Since then only one battalion of the 7th, the 1st Battalion, has ever done anything to set the world on fire.
So Fluffy created two gross miscarriages in my estimation.
For Ian's sake. I believe the two absolute best cavalry units we have ever fielded were the 4th Cavalry throughout its entire history, and the 106th Cavalry Group in WWII.
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Post by BrevetorCoffin on Oct 21, 2017 2:55:37 GMT
Don't you ever belittle Hoot and Holler, NE on this board! It is like taking a shot at the North Brothers! Regards, Tom Any relation to King Rootin Tootin?
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