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Post by sgttyree on Jul 16, 2017 18:25:56 GMT
…..I shelved my opinion on the drinking lark, ages ago, now I stay clear of it because it gets us nowhere. “So Grant gets drunk, does he? Well, you needn’t waste your time getting proof; you just find out, to oblige me, what brand of whiskey Grant drinks, because I want to send a barrel of it to each one of my generals.” - Abraham Lincoln
And my favorite: "Mister Churchill, you're drunk!" - Bessie Babcock "Yes, madame, and you are ugly. But I shall be sober in the morning." - Winston Churchill
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Post by yanmacca on Jul 16, 2017 18:41:01 GMT
Things to note from this clip, the cowboy next to Marvin is a young Lee Van Cleef and my favorite bit is the way both Wayne and Marvin square up to one another and stare each other out as Stewart picks up the steak. That kick in the chops that Wayne gives one of Marvin's boys, looks real, I wonder if he ever caught him during rehearsals. link
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Jul 17, 2017 8:59:57 GMT
Yes I know what you are all talking about, I am fully versed in all military manoeuvres and terms, but that is not the point here. Montrose is right, it is not rocket science but this whole campaign was a shambles and treated by those in command as a punitive mission with an air of arrogance and casualness. Just today I read how Cook and Keogh were riding along with Reno as his men were about to cross at ford A, having a jolly laugh by the sounds of it. But off course Reno was the advance guard, but only up to a point and that point ended when Custer turned right without ordering Benteen to fill in the void left by him moving up the bluffs. From that point on the Reno mission went from advanced guard to a full blown attack without any support from the rear, but the Reno knew nothing of the change of plan. The above highlight is pretty much what Custer's note was about in my opinion Ian. Rather fill the space between Reno in withdrawal and the pack train. Cheers
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Post by yanmacca on Jul 17, 2017 10:08:37 GMT
Yes Mac, thanks. I agree with your idea of Benteen going into the valley, for him to travel over the bluffs with a mule train in tow is insane. But thanks for reading my post and making something constructive out of it.
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Post by quincannon on Jul 17, 2017 17:11:45 GMT
That is not what Mac said. He may think it, but he did not say it.
Mac said filling a void. In other words covering the pack train.
He said nothing about going into the valley.
The note could not be filling a void between Reno in withdrawal and the pack train. Custer had no knowledge of Reno doing any withdrawing when the note was sent.
Rather, the note was directive to cover the pack train in the event Reno must withdraw. Two completely different things, and the covering does not hinge on Benteen entering the valley.
In fact Benteen would have been a complete fool to enter that valley with the pack train in tow, until the situation in the valley was stabilized. As we know it did not stabilize. His job was to remain between those packs and any Indians, and to remain in that configuration regardless of where the flow of battle took the forces engaged.
Filling the void is not entering the valley/
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Jul 18, 2017 12:14:29 GMT
The void is the idea that you identified Ian and I think you are spot on. Entering the valley is another matter. I think Custer saw immediately that Reno could not stay in the valley as his line "hung" out on the left. Anyone could see that Reno would not be able to contain the warriors and would thus be forced to withdraw back up the valley. I suspect the reason Reno waited too long was that he was holding expecting Custer to arrive. Ironic isn't it that he gets slammed for not holding longer when if he had withdrawn back along the valley faster he would have drawn the warriors further from the village and thus helped Custer. I think that is what Custer expected and the void that he wanted Benteen to occupy was the space in front of the packs. Hence "bring packs"; protecting the packs was an absolute necessity. Benteen knew this because he was an experienced commander. He did exactly what Custer wanted him to do. Cheers
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Post by yanmacca on Jul 18, 2017 13:58:21 GMT
Thanks Mac.
So then Benteen is limited to what he can and can’t do because he is left holding the baby.
This restricts Benteen somewhat, because he can’t charge off and leave the train to fend for itself.
Like you said he had to keep to a certain distance in which to keep the packs behind him and the enemy to the front.
What do you think he would have done if he received reports that Reno was in trouble in the valley, I don’t think he could risk deserting the pack train or leaving it behind.
The only thing he could do is to pitch the pack train in a defensive area, along the 130+ soldiers who were traveling with it and move into the valley.
I think it depends on how far you can stretch the order “bring packs” does it mean bring them into the area and then detach your battalion and act offensively, or stay with the packs and act in a purely defensive role.
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dave
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,679
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Post by dave on Jul 18, 2017 15:08:42 GMT
According to a self proclaimed "Military Genius" Benteen knew: 1) Custer wanted him to bring the ammo mules to the village; 2) that the pack train had a larger force than his and did not need him to protect the train; 3) he was to hurry and not stop for anything including the watering of the horses.
So does this mean he mayhaps be wrong? Oh No! Earth shattering! Regards Dave
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Jul 18, 2017 22:26:32 GMT
Dave it amazes me the amount of nonsense people want to invent to read into that short document. All the above are crackpot in my view but then the poster concerned is not one that is generally worthy of notice. Cheers
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Post by quincannon on Jul 19, 2017 1:19:22 GMT
Dave I agree with Mac, and it may sound very strange coming from me, but every time any of us go after him for his idiotic ideas and statements, he in some sense wins, even if the winning consists only of one reader here going over there to see if he is really that big of an idiot.
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Post by Beth on Jul 19, 2017 3:09:20 GMT
According to a self proclaimed "Military Genius" Benteen knew: 1) Custer wanted him to bring the ammo mules to the village; 2) that the pack train had a larger force than his and did not need him to protect the train; 3) he was to hurry and not stop for anything including the watering of the horses. So does this mean he mayhaps be wrong? Oh No! Earth shattering! Regards Dave Where those Benteen's statement during the RCOI. Personally I thought he was being rather sarcastic that day, obviously annoyed by even having to be there and his comments were shaded as someone who was really tired of answering idiotic questions about something he would rather not remember.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Oct 13, 2017 15:17:59 GMT
Beth, Benteen knew what went on that day, never fully discussed it. He knew the flaws of the commander and what Reno could have and should have done better. He also knew he could have destroyed Reno and could have thrown more shade on GAC. Benteen was US Army through and through at the time.
Regards. Tom
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Post by yanmacca on Oct 13, 2017 15:31:12 GMT
Tom, here is a what if for you, and everyone else of course.
What if Benteen had come across Reno's battalion on Reno hill and he had the pack train with him. This would take the point of waiting for the packs and give Reno the support he needed with the 80+ trooper packers and leaving Benteen along with four companies [D, H, K & B]
I am not saying that Benteen could have saved Custer, but arriving an hour earlier on Weir point could have answered many questions and shut the Benteen knockers up.
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Post by quincannon on Oct 13, 2017 15:53:16 GMT
Nothing short of saving Goldilocks would have shut the Benteen detractors up.
To them it was never about doing the right thing or even things right, it was about my husband (or my hero) died. It was not possible to save Custer, regardless of any steps taken by anyone. The Custer fanatics, chief among them his wife, could and can never come to grips with the fact that Custer died by his own hand as surely as if he had put a gun to his head and pulled the trigger.
I am not sure it would have answered many questions either, the primary of which is why.
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Post by yanmacca on Oct 14, 2017 10:20:09 GMT
I think what I was getting at over Benteen having an influence on the outcome is down to how some authors view their time line data, they say that when Benteen arrived on Reno hill, elements of Custer’s battalion where arriving on Calhoun hill, so if Benteen had moved his re-enforced battalion off the hill, and followed Custer’s trail, how long would it have took him to arrive on the ridges [Weir or LNC] overlooking Calhoun hill. If they arrived before L and C Company had returned from BRE, could they have engaged any hostile elements in deep coulee and MTC before the companies returning from the north had reached Calhoun hill?
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