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Post by sgttyree on Jul 12, 2017 0:01:31 GMT
From Cooke: "The Indians are about two and a half miles ahead - they are on the jump. Go forward as fast as you think proper and charge them wherever you find them and he will support you."
From Custer (yelled as Reno passed by): "Take your battalion and try and overtake and bring them to battle and I will support you."
What was Custer expecting from Reno? Surely not a mounted charge into the southern end of the village? In modern military lingo that sounds almost like attempting a penetration attack and Reno only had three companies.
Was Custer expecting a recon in force (like a probe, but bigger)? A holding attack or fix? I realize I'm using terms for clarity that were not common then but these terms are the way we would describe things now.
If you were Reno how would you interpret your orders; orders that were more or less what we might call a fragmentary order today and didn't include much in the way of detail about the concept of the operation.
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Post by quincannon on Jul 12, 2017 1:07:44 GMT
Kevin: We have it from Reno himself that he considered himself the regimental advanced guard.
He was told and had every reason to expect that he would be supported by the main body.
As far as I know, he was not told where or when that support to arrive, so in instances like that you fall back on doctrine.
The prevailing doctrine then is that you position the advance guard one but no more than two terrain features to the front of the main body, and upon contact, develop the situation, and expect your support to appear from your rear and attempt to develop an exposed flank, and at some point pass the battle off to that main body.
Those two quotes that you started with though sound very much like an order to pursue, and you see no mention of anything suggesting a village.
Other than what I just said I do not have a clue as to divining Custer's intention for Reno. Nothing seems to fit into any known parameter to an extent where anyone can say - Yes Custer intended this, and not get six valid rebuttals in response It was not a probe, nor recon in force, it is hard to fix a force you seem to be in pursuit of. Only an idiot would order a penetrating frontal attack on something that you have no clue as to the size of or strength of the opposition, and especially not with less than a hundred fifty soldiers.
I would not even call it a fragmentary order, because the basic who-what-when-where-why-how are absent without leave, more of a wish and a promise.
How is school going?
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Post by sgttyree on Jul 12, 2017 1:16:30 GMT
Field Training Officer school. I've avoided it for years but finally had to go. It was death by PowerPoint yesterday and half of today. This afternoon was more interesting because we watched videos of rookie officers handing calls and evaluated and rated their performance.
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Post by quincannon on Jul 12, 2017 1:27:26 GMT
Ugh. Sounds like the first week of C&GS.
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Post by Beth on Jul 12, 2017 3:16:42 GMT
QC is always saying words have set meanings. Reno and Custer were both WP educated so they shared a common language when it comes to military movements. Cooke was not WP educated but he spent his adult life in the military. (I was shocked to just learn that he was only 30 years old at LBH)
I would love it if we understood exactly what Cooke and Custer were saying and did Reno act as those orders were given. Also do Cooke and Custer agree in their words or do the two orders conflict.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Jul 12, 2017 10:53:37 GMT
Here is my response, get dressed and go to the party. My answer would be, what party, where, how should I dress? But after those basic instructions, you have nobody to ask. As I have said many times, GAC on this day never shared his plans.
The party is at a nudist camp "The Emperor's New Clothes" might be appropriate here. GAC was totally undressed on this day. In more ways than one.
Regards, Tom
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2017 12:01:18 GMT
1. West Point (USMA) is a college. It has not, ever in its existence, been a superior provider of officers. Direct commissions, ROTC, etc have provided hundreds of thousands superior offices than West Point. I relieved 8 officers for cause in my career, 5 were USMA. I have had 4 superior officers fired for cause, all were USMA.
2. Miles was a book seller in Boston, one of my sisters worked in same place he did. He proves the 1876 Army was random. He never, from the day he was born to the day he died, received any training on how to be an officer. He joined Army as a private, got a direct commission, no officer training in his life. Using Miles to support Custer hero worship can only be done by a poster who has no rational thought, or numerous criminal convictions.
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azranger
Brigadier General
Ranger
Posts: 1,824
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Post by azranger on Jul 12, 2017 12:06:00 GMT
Field Training Officer school. I've avoided it for years but finally had to go. It was death by PowerPoint yesterday and half of today. This afternoon was more interesting because we watched videos of rookie officers handing calls and evaluated and rated their performance. I had to take the class twice. The first time we had FTOs and the second time it was because we had changed the program to WMTO. It was the same AZPOST class with added training objectives after completing the POST . We had the same AZPOST instructor for the first part. I was not convincing enough to the training officer stating that I did not need to take the same class twice. He said he was just following the new procedure.
The best thing that happened to me as a FTO is that we hired an experienced officer from Nevada and I got see how a trained and experienced officer handled situations with the stress of being in a training and evaluation environment. Some of the best stories I have are with new trainees.
Regards
Steve
AZ Ranger
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Post by sgttyree on Jul 12, 2017 12:56:41 GMT
The key verbiage seems to be "bring them to battle." In other words "go become engaged." That happened. Reno chose to skirmish instead of continuing a mounted attack. But he brought them to battle.
I feel like Reno was handed a bowl of chicken poop and expected to make chicken soup.
Had I been in his position then and had a flask in my saddle bags I'd be tempted to take a stiff belt before leading that attack into the valley.
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Post by sgttyree on Jul 12, 2017 13:37:23 GMT
Here is my response, get dressed and go to the party. My answer would be, what party, where, how should I dress? But after those basic instructions, you have nobody to ask. Take that and add in the METT-TC considerations and I believe today's Reno castigators go overboard in their criticism. "Shoulda held the timber longer, shoulda continued the mounted attack, etc.". That sort of criticism given in a constructive way has its place in an after action review conducted by a unit for the purpose of improving future performance. But I don't believe that sort of tinkering on the margins changes the outcome here.
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dave
Brigadier General
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Post by dave on Jul 12, 2017 15:34:02 GMT
"Shoulda held the timber longer, shoulda continued the mounted attack, etc.". That sort of criticism given in a constructive way has its place in an after action review conducted by a unit for the purpose of improving future performance.
I have read so many articles, books and posts which propose or state that Reno should have held his position for another 15, 20 or 30 minutes. My simple question is "how would he know to stay longer?" He had not seen hide nor hair of any soldier since his advance and encounter with the enemy then found himself amidst a bee hive of Indians attacking from all directions and he is expected to wait longer for assistance when things have gone to hell. He has had his scout killed by his side coupled with the lack of visibility due to gun smoke and burning brush and timber so did he error in leaving? If so how should he have handled his command? Did he leave too early? I know his choice of exit maneuver has been under debate since June 25, 1876 but did he wait too long to move to move or was he too quick to jump? Look forward to the responses. Regards Dave
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Post by yanmacca on Jul 12, 2017 15:42:10 GMT
Dave, I shelved my opinion on the drinking lark, ages ago, now I stay clear of it because it gets us nowhere.
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Post by quincannon on Jul 12, 2017 15:56:30 GMT
As I said above judging on only those two sentences provided, the thing that seems most likely is that Reno was under the impression that he was the advance guard in a pursuit, to be followed closely behind by the main body, which is standard procedure.
They are ahead, on the jump (meaning moving fast), charge them, bring them to battle, you will be supported. These are the only words Reno had as a basis for what he was supposed to do. There is no mention of village and the only people he was to engage by those two instructions were the Indians that were moving.
Then comes the point where Reno discovers that instead of chasing them, they were turning, coming out, with the intention of charging him, bring him to battle, and we have message traffic from Reno indicating this.
Reno then does what he was told by doctrine to do, dismount and develop the situation, thinking still the main body was in his rear and would arrive shortly.
Ten minutes later, and the main body not having arrived, all previous orders to Reno were overcome by events. It was then his responsibility to do what he thought best. He did. End of story.
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Post by Beth on Jul 13, 2017 3:14:34 GMT
1. West Point (USMA) is a college. It has not, ever in its existence, been a superior provider of officers. Direct commissions, ROTC, etc have provided hundreds of thousands superior offices than West Point. I relieved 8 officers for cause in my career, 5 were USMA. I have had 4 superior officers fired for cause, all were USMA. 2. Miles was a book seller in Boston, one of my sisters worked in same place he did. He proves the 1876 Army was random. He never, from the day he was born to the day he died, received any training on how to be an officer. He joined Army as a private, got a direct commission, no officer training in his life. Using Miles to support Custer hero worship can only be done by a poster who has no rational thought, or numerous criminal convictions. My question wasn't about the validity of the education, but that people who have a commonality of experience or education also share a totally different language that is as foreign to others as any foreign language. If you don't believe me, read AZ's post about officers training an experience he shares with Tyree but is perhaps a bit of a puzzle to some of the rest of us. It would be similar you were privy to hubby and his coworkers talking about their programming process. It helps to get something as that was perceived as an order at LBH translated correctly instead of guessing the intent.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2017 3:39:45 GMT
As I said above judging on only those two sentences provided, the thing that seems most likely is that Reno was under the impression that he was the advance guard in a pursuit, to be followed closely behind by the main body, which is standard procedure. They are ahead, on the jump (meaning moving fast), charge them, bring them to battle, you will be supported. These are the only words Reno had as a basis for what he was supposed to do. There is no mention of village and the only people he was to engage by those two instructions were the Indians that were moving. Then comes the point where Reno discovers that instead of chasing them, they were turning, coming out, with the intention of charging him, bring him to battle, and we have message traffic from Reno indicating this. Reno then does what he was told by doctrine to do, dismount and develop the situation, thinking still the main body was in his rear and would arrive shortly. Ten minutes later, and the main body not having arrived, all previous orders to Reno were overcome by events. It was then his responsibility to do what he thought best. He did. End of story. Brilliant post. The problem is that advanced guard has meaning. You develop the situation, so main body can gain battlefield awareness, and take appropriate action. The Indian response to the Advanced guard attack, was to exploit their open flank to sweep into their rear and cut them off. The automatic response for any competent officer is to send the main body to defeat the easily predicable tactic. The Indians did what they always do, beat them as we always do.
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