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Post by Beth on Jun 8, 2017 2:49:10 GMT
He is sort of a plain old brown farm horse surrounded by a flashy palomino and a dapple gray. I agree he is unlikable, a bit pitiful but doesn't really evoke much sympathy except for the last few years of his life.
I wonder why a man like Reno didn't leave the military and join perhaps a railroad or any other of the new fields that could use West Point trained men? He like about every other officer at the time were unlikely to advance much further in rank. Why stay in a career that made you miserable unless he was a person who just preferred to surround himself with misery. Sometimes I think of him as the Frank Burns of the 7th without Hotlips Houlihan
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Post by Beth on Jun 8, 2017 2:53:15 GMT
We've had severe thread drift, rather than move it or separate it perhaps we can find another title for it? Any suggestions?
(Edited to add) I missed that it was started in reference to a book so...
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Post by mlynn on Jun 8, 2017 3:00:36 GMT
Mary We have had many military veterans attest to the quality of the training received by the soldiers of the 7th Cavalry. Montrose, QC, Fred and others have stated that the 7th was a poorly trained and led regiment. I found a web site along time ago that provides information on the 7th as well as for cavalry regiments. Perhaps that will help you with your research? forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=2604The panic of 1873 along with “The Long Depression” which extended well beyond 1879 certainly made the army a choice for some---as to how many, spin the wheel and place your bets---but the miserly $13 per month was bested by many civilian occupations though it was a steady job with room and board. Interestingly enough the US passed the Coinage Act of 1873 in April just prior to the Yellowstone Expedition in the summer of 1873 where gold was discovered in the Black Hills which led to the 1876 Campaign! I found a list of the of the soldiers, civilians and Indian scouts present at the battle on a Friends of the Little Big Horn web site which provides the place of birth and other personal information of interest. There were 2 from Virginia and Louisiana and 1 from Tennessee on the list and Isiah Dorman was from Louisiana. If there were any ex-confederates present for duty they evidently changed their names and/or birth place. The old adage about all these ex rebs being in Union army really did not occur till the Spanish American War. The lonely duty, boring routine of post life and the lack of women led many to drink adding to that the horrors of the LBH battle created what we call today PTSD. Also as Beth mentioned men were running from whatever had happened at home and seeking a new leaf on life. www.friendslittlebighorn.com/7thUSCavalry1876.pdfBenteen seemed to be a natural leader but a poor follower of those he did not respect i.e. Custer. Personal courage was the coin of the realm during the Victorian Era and Benteen had that in spades. His courage was seen in action not bandied about around a camp fire and his reputation from the ACW was well known by all the soldiers of the 7th. Unlike Custer, Benteen had few friends but they were solid relationships based on mutual respect. Yet on the bluffs the night of June 25th he did not have his men dig in and he is criticized for that remission. Marcus Reno truly was born under a black cloud and his luck in life never changed! He was the guy who stepped on his own member time after time. His record in the ACW was satisfactory but hardly stellar and to say his ante-bellum life was difficult would be an understatement. The loss of his wife, the rumors of cowardice after the LBH and the lonely life of post life added to his problems with alcohol. The charges of lewd behavior in 1877 which lead to his court-martial was soon followed by his Court of Inquiry in 1879. Though exonerated by the court his reputation and career spiraled out of control climaxed by his dismissal from the army in 1880. He passed away in 1889 a man hounded by Libbie and other demons, God Rest His Soul. The obvious canard that Benteen dawdled on his ride to Custer after receiving Cooke's order has been put to rest by Steve Andrew's vast accumulation of riding times over his long career as a peace officer as well as the many rides he made at the battlefield. Fred Wagner's book “Strategy” presents this data in a clear unbiased format easily understood by even people like me. The thought or accusations by wanna-be military strategists that a decorated combat veteran, Benteen, would sacrifice the lives of over 200 soldiers out of spite with Custer is absurd! Regards Dave PS I liked Beth's answer best Damn, fine and as you know I hate to give you credit for anything! It is clear that I read the wrong summary of Benteen's part in the battle. I think my words stated it wrong. I did not intend to degrade him as a soldier. I had just read that he held back and was criticized for it. I am truly thankful for the correction.
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dave
Brigadier General
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Post by dave on Jun 8, 2017 3:08:32 GMT
Meanwhile back at the thread, MacArthur was not admired nor liked by the everyday GIs and especially the Marines and on a large scale he would have been as popular as Reno. MacArthur was accepted by FDR as a social equal and a difficult child to contain where as Harry S soon lost all respect and use for him when he decided that Truman was not needed in the Peace discussions. Harry did not stumble around canning his ass! Doug was not used to being spoken to an inferior.
So in the end Truman was the better man. Would we have missed MacArthur's skill and knowledge or could another general filled? I belie Truman was just the man America needed to insure Japan's surrender with the least loss of American and allies lives. Agree or disagree? Regards Dave
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Post by BrevetorCoffin on Jun 8, 2017 4:01:19 GMT
Meanwhile back at the thread, MacArthur was not admired nor liked by the everyday GIs and especially the Marines and on a large scale he would have been as popular as Reno. MacArthur was accepted by FDR as a social equal and a difficult child to contain where as Harry S soon lost all respect and use for him when he decided that Truman was not needed in the Peace discussions. Harry did not stumble around canning his ass! Doug was not used to being spoken to an inferior. So in the end Truman was the better man. Would we have missed MacArthur's skill and knowledge or could another general filled? I belie Truman was just the man America needed to insure Japan's surrender with the least loss of American and allies lives. Agree or disagree? Regards Dave Agree on Truman. Ballsy move unleashing the atomic bombs. MacArthur was derisively referred to as Dougout Doug for hiding out on Corregidor and they made up a song parody to the tune of John Brown's Body Lies a'Molderin' in the Grave. Inchon showed how brilliant Mac Arthur could be.
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Post by BrevetorCoffin on Jun 8, 2017 4:11:48 GMT
Mary We have had many military veterans attest to the quality of the training received by the soldiers of the 7th Cavalry. Montrose, QC, Fred and others have stated that the 7th was a poorly trained and led regiment. I found a web site along time ago that provides information on the 7th as well as for cavalry regiments. Perhaps that will help you with your research? forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=2604The panic of 1873 along with “The Long Depression” which extended well beyond 1879 certainly made the army a choice for some---as to how many, spin the wheel and place your bets---but the miserly $13 per month was bested by many civilian occupations though it was a steady job with room and board. Interestingly enough the US passed the Coinage Act of 1873 in April just prior to the Yellowstone Expedition in the summer of 1873 where gold was discovered in the Black Hills which led to the 1876 Campaign! I found a list of the of the soldiers, civilians and Indian scouts present at the battle on a Friends of the Little Big Horn web site which provides the place of birth and other personal information of interest. There were 2 from Virginia and Louisiana and 1 from Tennessee on the list and Isiah Dorman was from Louisiana. If there were any ex-confederates present for duty they evidently changed their names and/or birth place. The old adage about all these ex rebs being in Union army really did not occur till the Spanish American War. The lonely duty, boring routine of post life and the lack of women led many to drink adding to that the horrors of the LBH battle created what we call today PTSD. Also as Beth mentioned men were running from whatever had happened at home and seeking a new leaf on life. www.friendslittlebighorn.com/7thUSCavalry1876.pdfBenteen seemed to be a natural leader but a poor follower of those he did not respect i.e. Custer. Personal courage was the coin of the realm during the Victorian Era and Benteen had that in spades. His courage was seen in action not bandied about around a camp fire and his reputation from the ACW was well known by all the soldiers of the 7th. Unlike Custer, Benteen had few friends but they were solid relationships based on mutual respect. Yet on the bluffs the night of June 25th he did not have his men dig in and he is criticized for that remission. Marcus Reno truly was born under a black cloud and his luck in life never changed! He was the guy who stepped on his own member time after time. His record in the ACW was satisfactory but hardly stellar and to say his ante-bellum life was difficult would be an understatement. The loss of his wife, the rumors of cowardice after the LBH and the lonely life of post life added to his problems with alcohol. The charges of lewd behavior in 1877 which lead to his court-martial was soon followed by his Court of Inquiry in 1879. Though exonerated by the court his reputation and career spiraled out of control climaxed by his dismissal from the army in 1880. He passed away in 1889 a man hounded by Libbie and other demons, God Rest His Soul. The obvious canard that Benteen dawdled on his ride to Custer after receiving Cooke's order has been put to rest by Steve Andrew's vast accumulation of riding times over his long career as a peace officer as well as the many rides he made at the battlefield. Fred Wagner's book “Strategy” presents this data in a clear unbiased format easily understood by even people like me. The thought or accusations by wanna-be military strategists that a decorated combat veteran, Benteen, would sacrifice the lives of over 200 soldiers out of spite with Custer is absurd! Regards Dave PS I liked Beth's answer best Bro Dave I believe you refer to Reno's "Post Bellum" life. Ante Bellum refers to pre Civil War.
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dave
Brigadier General
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Post by dave on Jun 8, 2017 13:23:32 GMT
Brother David That is what happens when I use them big words. Post or ante are difficult concepts for the aged. Regards Dave
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Post by quincannon on Jun 8, 2017 14:29:08 GMT
Roosevelt had no use for MacArthur. He once called him he most dangerous man in America.
MacArthur went to the Philippines after he retired as Chief of Staff. His political connections in the Philippines grew in the next five years, to the point where with war imminent Roosevelt gave in to political pressure from the Philippines to recall him to active duty. Roosevelt would have just as soon see Douglas drop dead.
MacArthur was universally disliked by his troops starting with the reasons David stated. He surrounded himself with sycophants, and established a military fiefdom in the South Pacific. His operational skills were not at all brilliant. When you are faced with having nothing but islands in your theater, you have no choice but to island hop.
He was brilliant in the post war administration of Japan. He was probably the only person we had that could have done it so well.
He was miserable in Korea on all counts.
His downfall was disobeying the orders of the president, and that is one thing you did not do to Harry Truman.
Truman did not make that move however without consulting Marshall, Eisenhower, Bradley, and Collins. Collins was the guy who brought back the goods on MacArthur, and the other three were in full agreement before Truman acted.
MacArthur deserved what he got, and the one's most offended by Truman's actions were the Republicans in Congress, particularly in the House. MacArthur was to be the hero that was to bring about the end of 20 years of Democrats in the White House. Instead the Republicans chose a man of integrity, and the country was better for it.
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Post by Beth on Jun 8, 2017 14:36:35 GMT
Damn, fine and as you know I hate to give you credit for anything! It is clear that I read the wrong summary of Benteen's part in the battle. I think my words stated it wrong. I did not intend to degrade him as a soldier. I had just read that he held back and was criticized for it. I am truly thankful for the correction. It's not your fault. The problem is that nearly every author about BLBH feels they have to create a hero and a villain in the battle. I do feel though it is one of the better balanced books to start with. I am afraid this board has one fault that the other two don't, we have never really covered the often asked questions about BLBH that are often asked -was Reno drunk, did Benteen dawdle, was the condition of Custer's body different from what was told to his wife... BTW why I am thinking of it. Has anyone ever pointed out we have a glossary for all the abbreviations that get used-and if someone uses one you are unfamiliar with just ask, believe me I have to ask quite often.
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Post by BrevetorCoffin on Jun 8, 2017 15:25:49 GMT
It is clear that I read the wrong summary of Benteen's part in the battle. I think my words stated it wrong. I did not intend to degrade him as a soldier. I had just read that he held back and was criticized for it. I am truly thankful for the correction. It's not your fault. The problem is that nearly every author about BLBH feels they have to create a hero and a villain in the battle. I do feel though it is one of the better balanced books to start with. I am afraid this board has one fault that the other two don't, we have never really covered the often asked questions about BLBH that are often asked -was Reno drunk, did Benteen dawdle, was the condition of Custer's body different from what was told to his wife... BTW why I am thinking of it. Has anyone ever pointed out we have a glossary for all the abbreviations that get used-and if someone uses one you are unfamiliar with just ask, believe me I have to ask quite often. Beth, these topics have been discussed ad nauseum and often with deep emotional underpinnings depending on which officer is ones hero. I joined this board because participants tend to look deeper than who was at fault. Much more focus on what and why and delving into alternative scenarios. Many here also participate on Diane's board but this one has maintained a high level of activity whereas "Alliance" seems to be in the doldrums. I check the BS Board once a week to see if Benteeneast has posted and its fun to read Steve's retorts to von B thereby making said von B look like the buffoon that he is. Blaque and Gerry are also fine posters over ther and sometimes A10ACN adds some positive posts. In short I do not see the need to dive into if Reno was drunk, Benteen dawdled, etc. Been there, done that. Best, David
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benteen
First Lieutenant
"Once An Eagle
Posts: 406
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Post by benteen on Jun 8, 2017 18:42:10 GMT
Colonel Montrose,
I stand corrected. I never dreamed that there were Officers that would let men die for spite. That did shake me up. It is as despicable to me as cowards that are suppose to have fragged their Officer. I hated the message but I appreciate your honesty in posting it. I completly agree with you on your opinion of Custer
mlynn... I have a confession. I thought it was foolish that anyone would think a US Army officer would let men die out of spite, but as it turns out I was the foolish one. I still believe however, that an Officer like Capt Benteen would not.
Be Well Dan
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Post by Beth on Jun 8, 2017 20:30:05 GMT
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Post by quincannon on Jun 8, 2017 21:46:31 GMT
Benteen
I would suggest that before you stand so corrected, you and Montrose both read about the Battle of Second Manassas and discover just how many of the corps of McClellan's Army of the Potomac reinforced Pope's Army of Virginia at Second Manassas, corps that were there throughout the whole battle and the Battle of Chantilly/Ox Hill two days following. Over half were AoP troops. McClellan sent some of those troops overland, notably Fitz John Porter's corps, and the rest came down the Little River then Warrenton Turnpikes just as fast as they could get off the boat in Alexandria, from the Peninsula, and move in that direction. He did hold some back as a backstop near Annandale, but those were from the last to arrive at Alexandria.
McClellan was not happy about it. He bitched and moaned about having to do it, because he thought Manassas Plain or lower down toward the Rappahannock was the wrong place to fight, but he did send those troops. Had he not Pope would have been completely destroyed.
So that statement holds no water whatsoever, and is a completely false depiction of what transpired.
I would refer you to John Hennessy's monumental work "Return to Bull Run" and I would be glad to send you a copy of my own paper on the battle of Chantilly, (all the troops at Chantilly were AoP) if I can find it in the abortion I call my basement library.
The other two guys have similar stories to tell. Stories that were as far as I can tell judgement calls and in each case very bad judgment.
I suggest you get all the facts before you leap off that cliff Montrose has pointed you toward.
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dave
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,679
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Post by dave on Jun 8, 2017 23:33:48 GMT
Mary I did not take your comments regarding Benteen as nothing but your opinion. The triple trio of Custer, Reno and Benteen is a continuing discussion as it has been for the past 141 years. Each man has generated ardent detractors and Custer and Benteen ardent supporters. Reno at best is tolerated but never praised. Yet no one has ever provided a better way of extracting his battalion from a no win situation in the flats. Name a better maneuver with details than Reno's retrograde. Still waiting for that answer. As you read more and more about this minor military action you will develop your opinions and beliefs about these men and their actions during that summer campaign. Steve Andrews, AZ Ranger, has extensive data regarding actual traveling on horseback both in Montana and Arizona unlike some who ride a horse for a limited time as a reenactor. Steve's data conclusively proves that Benteen did not dawdle after receiving Cooke's order. There are countless threads on the other boards dealing with whether the order was an order or a general come on over note. Read them and decide for yourself. I have posted a few below that I have read and saved. Enjoy! Regards Dave lbha.proboards.com/thread/914/benteens-orderslbha.proboards.com/thread/3723/defense-benteenlbha.proboards.com/thread/4790/nitpicking-cooke-benteenthelbha.proboards.com/thread/2346/benteen-come-quick-orders
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Post by mlynn on Jun 9, 2017 0:36:03 GMT
Mary I did not take your comments regarding Benteen as nothing but your opinion. The triple trio of Custer, Reno and Benteen is a continuing discussion as it has been for the past 141 years. Each man has generated ardent detractors and Custer and Benteen ardent supporters. Reno at best is tolerated but never praised. Yet no one has ever provided a better way of extracting his battalion from a no win situation in the flats. Name a better maneuver with details than Reno's retrograde. Still waiting for that answer. As you read more and more about this minor military action you will develop your opinions and beliefs about these men and their actions during that summer campaign. Steve Andrews, AZ Ranger, has extensive data regarding actual traveling on horseback both in Montana and Arizona unlike some who ride a horse for a limited time as a reenactor. Steve's data conclusively proves that Benteen did not dawdle after receiving Cooke's order. There are countless threads on the other boards dealing with whether the order was an order or a general come on over note. Read them and decide for yourself. I have posted a few below that I have read and saved. Enjoy! Regards Dave lbha.proboards.com/thread/914/benteens-orderslbha.proboards.com/thread/3723/defense-benteenlbha.proboards.com/thread/4790/nitpicking-cooke-benteenthelbha.proboards.com/thread/2346/benteen-come-quick-ordersAs I was reading clips on the internet, I kept coming across the tension between Custer and Benteen and that he was accused of holding back. As I stated before, I have just started looking into the battle. I was after opinions on this with my post. I didn't mean to open a can worms. I really are not trying to pull blame or point fingers at one factor or person. I know that is way too simplistic for such a complex event (especially with very few witnesses). I also know that I have just jointed the forum and have not read through all the posts yet. Thanks for the threads. I will read them.
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