dave
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,679
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Post by dave on Jun 7, 2017 14:56:48 GMT
Mary Your comment: 'Also, the rest of the "team", the raw, uneducated troops, were expected to follow the example of their leaders. I can only imagine what was going on in their minds and how that effected their actions." This really brings to mind the "small ball" goings on of the 7th. Their leaders were split into separate groups the "ins" and the "outs" so imagine the turmoil the privates and noncoms faced depending on which company they were in. I have no doubt whatsoever that Benteen's acidic comments were heard on one and all in his company and later his battalion which surely added to the leadership problems of the regiment. So which leader was the exemplifier for Company H during the campaign? Custer or Benteen? Regards Dave
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Post by mlynn on Jun 7, 2017 15:35:29 GMT
Now you know what I asked such a seemingly stupid question. It was to illustrate in situations we confront in our everyday lives, are the very same factors we have to deal with in a military environment, team climate, work force climate, family climate. All to often folks that have never been exposed to the military think that there is something associated with the military climate that does not equate to the human climate. It is somehow separate and divorced from. As long as we pick people for the military from the human race, these things will always be the same. It is for the military commander therefore to get these things under control, just like the coach, supervisor, or the head of a family. Custer not only did not get it under control, he fostered and facilitated the acts themselves. Magnificent answer. It must run in the family or be something in the Iowa water. Iowa water is full of pesticides from runoff and algae. Appreciation for military people being human comes from reading history from the human perspective and to listening to soldiers/former soldiers when they talk. You take one battle and you can divide it into facts, myths and human experience. Human experience is often flawed by perception, emotion and ego but, it is an important part of understanding history. When I do read fiction, it is usually historical fiction because it focuses on the human aspect of history. But, I also realize that it is fiction (even though often based on facts) and, like movies, is meant to sell. My interest in psychology is always present when considering the players in battles. I love to visit a battlefield and stand alone in one spot and reflect on what it would of felt like to be in one soldier's shoes. I once went to Pickett's Charge in Gettysburg, early in the morning, and walked across from the Confederate side into the cannons on the Union side. I was so overcome by emotion by the time I reached those cannons that tears were flowing. I have a deep respect for all soldiers for having to deal with so many emotions during a time when their wits must be remain sharp.
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Post by mlynn on Jun 7, 2017 16:16:03 GMT
Dave, I am again taken back by the backgrounds of the troops and the reasons they were in that Army in the first place. Were they there because they were patriots, Indian haters, unemployed, running from something or someone or etc? Many were not fully trained and had the rebellious personality traits to start with and then, you add that to the chaos of officers back biting, arguing and vying for power and position.
How much of Benteen's hatred for Custer cause him to hold back? I have this question floating around in my mind. Opinions?
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Post by Beth on Jun 7, 2017 17:50:12 GMT
Dave, I am again taken back by the backgrounds of the troops and the reasons they were in that Army in the first place. Were they there because they were patriots, Indian haters, unemployed, running from something or someone or etc? Many were not fully trained and had the rebellious personality traits to start with and then, you add that to the chaos of officers back biting, arguing and vying for power and position. How much of Benteen's hatred for Custer cause him to hold back? I have this question floating around in my mind. Opinions? I know that this was asked of Dave but to paraphrase -I must have my share of the conversation. I think that the driving force for the enlisted men was as varied as their were men-the largest driving force though was probably to be employed. The army didn't pay well, but it paid steady and they were fed and housed and if necessary-had money to send home. I've only been able to complete a couple of the companies but I have found that at least among those that died because their belongings were documented in Final Statements-several had even managed to save quite a bit of money. Many of the troops were immigrants, few had wives and many really had no attachments to anything-and desertion was common but the time of the campaign it wasn't rampant. I do see though that many men of the 7th experienced alcoholism after the battle but most serve out the term of their enlistment and disappear into a quiet life. I find them through pension forms and burial records, not because of notoriety. The US was in an economic downturn at the time much of the 7th enlisted, it was the downturn that lead to the Black Hills Expedition in 1874 and as a direct consequence from the expedition (finding gold), the pressure on the Sioux nation to give up the lands. By 1876 though the economy was starting to turn up so into what we think of as the a thriving period of economy growth. I've noticed also that a large number of the 7th were basically professional soldiers-they had fought in the CW and continued to enlist in a number of regiments and even after they served in the 7th, went on to different regiments. Trumpeter William Hardy served from the CW into the Spanish American war. I also when I read about some men, I believe they were running from things, there are some ends that may lead you to believe that they had a lifestyle that would have been considered unacceptable. As for the complicated Benteen, Custer, Reno relationship-every book writer has to have heroes and villains in their story and when one author might characterize Benteen as the hero of the battle, 10 more will vilify him as dawdling when he could have saved Custer. Personally I think Benteen had a pretty sound read on Custer's character but I suspect that Custer would have difficulty understanding Benteen. Benteen's men though seemed to respect him, perhaps because what we would now call his team building but back then it was his baseball team. infinitecardset.blogspot.com/2011/06/82-frederick-benteen-baseball-custers.htmlReno on the other hand was a man who was starting, or well on the way into what would be a terrible post army life. He was a man who by 1876 tended to view life as if he always got the fuzzy end of a lollipop. I don't know how much Libby Custer's blaming him for the disaster was a factor but I suspect even without that, his personal demons were taking over his life. As for Benteen holding back, I believe that Steve was part of timing the route that Benteen probably took for Fred Wagner's book. He can best answer that question.
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Post by mlynn on Jun 7, 2017 19:09:13 GMT
Beth, I think you are right about the blame shifting according to source. Some sources I have read blames Custer and some blame Reno/Benteen. I tend to believe that there were many factors, as all of you do. You all have read more than I have on this battle but I keep comparing it to present politics in my mind. You have a leader, with a grandiose view of himself ignoring junior officer's input. When you have this kind of top leadership, things tend to fall apart and some of the players will disengage by pulling back. That is what I was thinking when I asked the question about Benteen pulling back. Probably, nobody will ever know why he held back.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Jun 7, 2017 19:34:14 GMT
ML, Benteen warned GAC to keep the command together and did his best to restore order on Reno Hill.
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Post by quincannon on Jun 7, 2017 20:20:44 GMT
Benteen held nothing back. No evidence at all that he did.
Benteen came upon Reno, and was smart enough to know that he could do nothing, until Reno was restored to some semblance of combat effectiveness. Anyone who tells you any different is lying to you.
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benteen
First Lieutenant
"Once An Eagle
Posts: 406
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Post by benteen on Jun 7, 2017 21:14:59 GMT
mlynn,
A few years ago Steve (AZ Ranger) and a fine young lady named Teri (Zekes girl) rode the route that Benteen took and measured times and distances and came to the conclusion that Benteen did NOT dawdle.
Unfortunatly men have died becuse of an officers mistakes, it is just a simple fact. However I will say that no Officer ever let men die because they didnt like someone.
In Benteens case it is two fold. He would never allow men to die because he didnt like Custer, but also Benteen would like nothing better, in fact he would have loved to pull Custers chestnuts out of the fire so he could yell from the mountain tops every day how Custer was a fool and needed to be saved, and he, Benteen, was the one who saved him.
Be Well Dan
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2017 22:09:18 GMT
Dan, Tens of thousands have died over petty jealousy. My country owes its independence to your Lord Sackville, who as convicted by court martial for deliberately sitting out a battle, over petty jealousy: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Germain,_1st_Viscount_Sackville And then there is Lord Wentworth. And Little Mac at 2nd Bull Run. The list goes on and on. At LBH I think we see a clear example of a petty man refusing to support another officer. The Operations Order demanded this support, there is no question tis officer was grossly negligent, and a disgrace to his commission. The officer in question is LTC Custer, who deliberately failed to support his advanced guard with the main body. He had been convicted by court martial for gross incompetence in the 1867 campaign, his transgressions were far worse at LBH. The main battle at LBH was fought in the valley, and GAC lacked the intestinal fortitude to go there. Physical courage is not the same as moral courage for a commander. GAC kept meeting decision points that demanded audacity, and in every case he blinked, and delayed. His excessive indecision, timidity and passivity are the main reason this battle was lost. Respectfully, William
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Post by Beth on Jun 7, 2017 22:26:46 GMT
Beth, I think you are right about the blame shifting according to source. Some sources I have read blames Custer and some blame Reno/Benteen. I tend to believe that there were many factors, as all of you do. You all have read more than I have on this battle but I keep comparing it to present politics in my mind. You have a leader, with a grandiose view of himself ignoring junior officer's input. When you have this kind of top leadership, things tend to fall apart and some of the players will disengage by pulling back. That is what I was thinking when I asked the question about Benteen pulling back. Probably, nobody will ever know why he held back. I think it is important to remember thought that Reno and Benteen were both professional soldiers and even if they didn't like their commander, they would never willingly endanger those men under Custer's command. It's like disliking your boss but knowing if you don't hold up your end in production, everyone is going to suffer. Also your future position in the company will rely on the rise and fall of your boss so you need to CYA.
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Post by mlynn on Jun 7, 2017 22:49:28 GMT
I think it is important to remember thought that Reno and Benteen were both professional soldiers and even if they didn't like their commander, they would never willingly endanger those men under Custer's command. It's like disliking your boss but knowing if you don't hold up your end in production, everyone is going to suffer. Also your future position in the company will rely on the rise and fall of your boss so you need to CYA. I agree. I don't think he would of intentionally tried to foil the attack. Also, I respect all of your opinions for you have been studying and reading about this battle for quite awhile. I am just now exploring possible what, when and whys. I am enjoying all the posts.
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dave
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,679
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Post by dave on Jun 7, 2017 23:18:29 GMT
Mary We have had many military veterans attest to the quality of the training received by the soldiers of the 7th Cavalry. Montrose, QC, Fred and others have stated that the 7th was a poorly trained and led regiment. I found a web site along time ago that provides information on the 7th as well as for cavalry regiments. Perhaps that will help you with your research? forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=2604The panic of 1873 along with “The Long Depression” which extended well beyond 1879 certainly made the army a choice for some---as to how many, spin the wheel and place your bets---but the miserly $13 per month was bested by many civilian occupations though it was a steady job with room and board. Interestingly enough the US passed the Coinage Act of 1873 in April just prior to the Yellowstone Expedition in the summer of 1873 where gold was discovered in the Black Hills which led to the 1876 Campaign! I found a list of the of the soldiers, civilians and Indian scouts present at the battle on a Friends of the Little Big Horn web site which provides the place of birth and other personal information of interest. There were 2 from Virginia and Louisiana and 1 from Tennessee on the list and Isiah Dorman was from Louisiana. If there were any ex-confederates present for duty they evidently changed their names and/or birth place. The old adage about all these ex rebs being in Union army really did not occur till the Spanish American War. The lonely duty, boring routine of post life and the lack of women led many to drink adding to that the horrors of the LBH battle created what we call today PTSD. Also as Beth mentioned men were running from whatever had happened at home and seeking a new leaf on life. www.friendslittlebighorn.com/7thUSCavalry1876.pdfBenteen seemed to be a natural leader but a poor follower of those he did not respect i.e. Custer. Personal courage was the coin of the realm during the Victorian Era and Benteen had that in spades. His courage was seen in action not bandied about around a camp fire and his reputation from the ACW was well known by all the soldiers of the 7th. Unlike Custer, Benteen had few friends but they were solid relationships based on mutual respect. Yet on the bluffs the night of June 25th he did not have his men dig in and he is criticized for that remission. Marcus Reno truly was born under a black cloud and his luck in life never changed! He was the guy who stepped on his own member time after time. His record in the ACW was satisfactory but hardly stellar and to say his ante-bellum life was difficult would be an understatement. The loss of his wife, the rumors of cowardice after the LBH and the lonely life of post life added to his problems with alcohol. The charges of lewd behavior in 1877 which lead to his court-martial was soon followed by his Court of Inquiry in 1879. Though exonerated by the court his reputation and career spiraled out of control climaxed by his dismissal from the army in 1880. He passed away in 1889 a man hounded by Libbie and other demons, God Rest His Soul. The obvious canard that Benteen dawdled on his ride to Custer after receiving Cooke's order has been put to rest by Steve Andrew's vast accumulation of riding times over his long career as a peace officer as well as the many rides he made at the battlefield. Fred Wagner's book “Strategy” presents this data in a clear unbiased format easily understood by even people like me. The thought or accusations by wanna-be military strategists that a decorated combat veteran, Benteen, would sacrifice the lives of over 200 soldiers out of spite with Custer is absurd! Regards Dave PS I liked Beth's answer best
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Post by Beth on Jun 7, 2017 23:54:07 GMT
I'm not sure if Reno could be described as just satisfactory when it came to the CW-he did end up with the rank of Brevet Brigadier General and unlike Custer had more experience in field command. He was injured in battle when his horse fell on him which caused a hernia. I am unsure if medicine was such that a hernia could be repaired back then but I can imagine if not it was something that caused him serious pain.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Jun 8, 2017 0:07:16 GMT
Mary We have had many military veterans attest to the quality of the training received by the soldiers of the 7th Cavalry. Montrose, QC, Fred and others have stated that the 7th was a poorly trained and led regiment. I found a web site along time ago that provides information on the 7th as well as for cavalry regiments. Perhaps that will help you with your research? forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=2604The panic of 1873 along with “The Long Depression” which extended well beyond 1879 certainly made the army a choice for some---as to how many, spin the wheel and place your bets---but the miserly $13 per month was bested by many civilian occupations though it was a steady job with room and board. Interestingly enough the US passed the Coinage Act of 1873 in April just prior to the Yellowstone Expedition in the summer of 1873 where gold was discovered in the Black Hills which led to the 1876 Campaign! I found a list of the of the soldiers, civilians and Indian scouts present at the battle on a Friends of the Little Big Horn web site which provides the place of birth and other personal information of interest. There were 2 from Virginia and Louisiana and 1 from Tennessee on the list and Isiah Dorman was from Louisiana. If there were any ex-confederates present for duty they evidently changed their names and/or birth place. The old adage about all these ex rebs being in Union army really did not occur till the Spanish American War. The lonely duty, boring routine of post life and the lack of women led many to drink adding to that the horrors of the LBH battle created what we call today PTSD. Also as Beth mentioned men were running from whatever had happened at home and seeking a new leaf on life. www.friendslittlebighorn.com/7thUSCavalry1876.pdfBenteen seemed to be a natural leader but a poor follower of those he did not respect i.e. Custer. Personal courage was the coin of the realm during the Victorian Era and Benteen had that in spades. His courage was seen in action not bandied about around a camp fire and his reputation from the ACW was well known by all the soldiers of the 7th. Unlike Custer, Benteen had few friends but they were solid relationships based on mutual respect. Yet on the bluffs the night of June 25th he did not have his men dig in and he is criticized for that remission. Marcus Reno truly was born under a black cloud and his luck in life never changed! He was the guy who stepped on his own member time after time. His record in the ACW was satisfactory but hardly stellar and to say his ante-bellum life was difficult would be an understatement. The loss of his wife, the rumors of cowardice after the LBH and the lonely life of post life added to his problems with alcohol. The charges of lewd behavior in 1877 which lead to his court-martial was soon followed by his Court of Inquiry in 1879. Though exonerated by the court his reputation and career spiraled out of control climaxed by his dismissal from the army in 1880. He passed away in 1889 a man hounded by Libbie and other demons, God Rest His Soul. The obvious canard that Benteen dawdled on his ride to Custer after receiving Cooke's order has been put to rest by Steve Andrew's vast accumulation of riding times over his long career as a peace officer as well as the many rides he made at the battlefield. Fred Wagner's book “Strategy” presents this data in a clear unbiased format easily understood by even people like me. The thought or accusations by wanna-be military strategists that a decorated combat veteran, Benteen, would sacrifice the lives of over 200 soldiers out of spite with Custer is absurd! Regards Dave PS I liked Beth's answer best Damn, fine and as you know I hate to give you credit for anything!
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dave
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,679
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Post by dave on Jun 8, 2017 0:14:46 GMT
Beth I do not mean to demean the man for his ACW record but it seems that nothing what soever went Marcus Reno's way, even his military service. He was doing his job as a soldier no doubt and I admire him for serving. He had no flair or personality that I have ever read of and basically was not a soldier's soldier as Benteen, Custer or other noted officers. Reno has been criticized for his retrograde from the timbers but no one has ever been able to provide a better method with proof other than he should of could of etc. but the man received no credit for this decision due to his performance on the bluffs. He was hardly if at all noticed except for his drinking during his military career despite his awards for gallantry in service. He is a hard man to like or admire and seems to be a touchstone for disaster. Regards Dave
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