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Post by quincannon on Feb 8, 2019 15:56:05 GMT
And my answer is probably not. Once the Glosters fell back from their initial positions which were spread out along a wide front, to Gloster Hill they were in fact trapped. It was therefore the falling back to the hill not automatic weapons or firepower in general, but rather the Chinese seeking the flanks and rear, successful infiltration tactics, that won the day. Absolutely nothing derogatory can be said about the Glosters. They put up one heck of a fight.
To your point though, I don't know why the British did not accept the offer of US weapons, like the M-1, BAR, and Browning machine guns, and bring themselves up to the same firepower standards as the US Army. Most of the other allied forces, which were mainly in battalion strength formations did, as well as the Royal Marine Commando, attached to the 1st MARDIV. I believe they were even offered Shermans to replace the Centurions. The Centurion was a better tank than either Sherman or Pershing, but in taking the offer the British would not have been plagued with the spare parts problems that haunted them throughout the Korean war. Commonality of parts and ammunition, even rations makes an always difficult logistical problems a bit easier.
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Post by yanmacca on Feb 8, 2019 16:45:49 GMT
I don't know either Chuck, I have always disliked the vickers MMG because of the weight and water container, I would guess that in a war like this you would have shift your based of fire pretty quick and the M1919 would be a better option.
Regarding the sherman's I would have got my hands on as many M4 105s as I could.
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Post by quincannon on Feb 8, 2019 17:04:29 GMT
In Korea there were no M4's equipped with the 105mm gun. They were all equipped with the 76mm main gun. I believe the only 105mm equipped Sherman's were modified to that standard by Israel.
We had the water cooled 30 Cal Brownings in our weapons companies, and the M1919 air cooled guns in the rifle companies. The only real difference is weight and the ability of the water cooled gun to stay in action longer by virtue of it being water cooled. They were both help and hindrance in combat. If you intend to stay in one place for a long time, the water cooled gun is a better option. With a moving unit though a water cooled gun is next to worthless.
Back in the day, the water cooled 30 Cals were still around for specific uses, but not with combat units. The only one I ever saw was in 62, and several, like six or seven, were used on infiltration courses for training at Fort Jackson. The idea was that you had to crawl the length of a football field with those guns firing over your head with live ammunition, meanwhile explosive charges, simulating mortar fire were going off all around you. Very good training. Only a water cooled gun could keep up the sustained rate of fire for that long a time that it took to crawl that distance. As you got closer, within a few meters of the guns you could see them glow red, they were so hot, but they kept on firing.
The problem for the British, Australians, and Canadians in Korea was the supply line for British specific pieces of equipment was very long, while the U S Army had huge supply and maintenance depots in Japan, and had established equally large depots around the port of Pusan
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Post by yanmacca on Feb 8, 2019 20:42:38 GMT
The all the Browning's were great weapons, I am sure the M1917A1 which we both elude to, could be set and locked in to fire at a certain height and traverse, once this was set the gunner just swept left and right which meant that troops would be safe under its fire curtain just as long as they keep their heads, or in some cases their asses down. I was watching an old movie last week called 'Wake Island' [made in 1943] and the air defenses had the old water cooled .50 cal HMGs. They seemed like old cannons with their water jackets.
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Post by yanmacca on Feb 8, 2019 20:47:34 GMT
I have not checked as yet but, how many nations except the US and Britain, took armour to Korea, I guess if any other nation took tanks then they would be US ones from WW2. It looked like only the USA and the UK sent armour and I was surprised at some of the stuff we sent;
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Post by quincannon on Feb 8, 2019 22:26:59 GMT
I think the Canadians sent a squadron from Lord Strathcona's Horse, but will have to check.
Checked: They sent A, B, and C Squadrons, but not at the same time. One squadron would relieve the other from then the other 51 to 53. They mounted Easy 8 Shermans. Essentially they acted as the tank company for 25th Brigade, the same way each of our Infantry regiments had a tank company
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Post by yanmacca on Feb 9, 2019 18:45:29 GMT
The British tankers were sorry to lose their sherman's, when the army received the first Cromwell tanks, they ordered the armoured regiments to hand over their M4s and start training with the new Cromwell for D Day.
Don't get me wrong the Cromwell was not a bad tank but is came two or three years too late. It would have been a very effective AFV if it was available in 1940, by 1944 not so much.
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Post by Beth on Feb 18, 2019 5:28:02 GMT
Okay this is going to show my total lack of knowledge and I know I could just google it, but I tend to learn more here. How many nations were involved in the Korean War?
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Post by yanmacca on Feb 18, 2019 12:17:34 GMT
Hi Beth, well apart from the North Koreans, China and support from Russia, the Allies contained; USA Britain Canada Australia New Zealand South Africa
South Korea France Belgium Holland Luxembourg Philippines Thailand
Greece [The Greek Expeditionary Force was assigned to the US 3rd ID & 1st Cavalry Division] Turkey [The Turkish Brigaded was assigned to the US 25th Infantry Division]
Ethiopia [three Kagnew battalions from the Royal Ethiopia army were assigned to work with the US 7th Infantry Division]Colombia [assigned to the 21st Regiment of the US 24th Infantry Division]
Offered support in medical and logistics etc. Denmark Italy West Germany India Israel Norway Sweden Taiwan Japan Cuba [wow now that is a surprise] El Salvador Spain
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Post by quincannon on Feb 18, 2019 18:33:58 GMT
Actually you have the GEF attachments reversed Ian. When the GEF first arrived they were attached to the 1st Cavalry Division and became as far as their operations went became the 4th Battalion, 7th Cavalry. When the 1st Cavalry Division was redeployed to Japan, the GEF was attached to the 3rd ID, and operationally became the 4th Battalion, 15th Infantry.
Most of the US Infantry regiments had a non US battalion attached to them. The 23rd Infantry Regiment for instance had the Battalion Koree of the French Army serving as its 4th Battalion
The Brits fielded first a brigade, and then The Commonwealth Division later, composed of Commonwealth troops under British command.
The Turks fielded a brigade on its own, but that in effect became the fourth regiment attached as you stated to the 24th ID. Think they worked along side the 25th ID as well, but can't recall, will have to check, if they were ever formally attached to that division. I do reacall though that they were most often deployed in a corps reserve role, which was very active, since corps reserve units in Korea were mostly used to plug holes. In the beginning the Turks were not worth two hoots in hell, but they learned fast and became some real tough customers.
The 1st Cavalry Division was redeployed to Japan, when the 40th and 45th Infantry Divisions, National Guard divisions from California and Oklahoma respectively were sent to Korea. Why that was done I have no clue, and the records are unclear. I suspect though that it was a political decision, spurred on by the National Guard Bureau to get ARNG land forces in the battle. The Air National Guard had deployed squadrons to Korea very early, and many of their aircraft even earlier were taken from them and replaced by other types. It seems the ANG had a corner on all the D model F51's which were considered better for ground support work than the later model Mustangs that were in the active air force inventory.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Feb 18, 2019 20:56:50 GMT
I love it when you talk the Air National Guard. Thanks Chuck.
The Maryland Air National Guard traces its origins to 29 June 1921. On that date the 104th Observation Squadron was federally recognized in Baltimore. It became the first post-World War I National Guard unit to be equipped with its own aircraft, 13 Curtiss JN-4 Jennies, which it flew until 1923. The unit was based at Logan Field in Baltimore. Initially it served as division of aviation for the 29th Infantry Division. In addition to Jennies, the 104th flew a variety of other aircraft during the interwar period, almost all of them two-seat biplanes.
The 104th's World War II service began on Feb. 3, 1941, when it was mobilized along with the rest of the Maryland Guard. During the war, the 104th flew antisubmarine patrols out of Atlantic City, N.J., as part of the 59th Observation Group using O-46 and O-47 aircraft.
In late 1942, the 104th was inactivated and its personnel transferred to the new 517th Bombardment Squadron, which soon moved to Langley Field, Va. There the unit, which was later redesignated the 12th Antisubmarine Squadron, flew B-18B Bolo, and later B-24 Liberator and B-25 Mitchell bombers against German U-boats in the Atlantic.
The unit was moved to California and redesignated the 859th Bombardment Squadron in September 1943. By this time most of the original National Guard members had been transferred elsewhere as individual replacements, although a handful were still serving with the unit when it entered combat in Europe in May 1944.
The 104th returned to Maryland when the 104th Fighter Squadron was reactivated in 1946 at Harbor Field in Baltimore, equipped with P-47 Thunderbolt aircraft, later replaced by F-51 Mustangs. From 1955 to 1958, the unit was organized as a fighter-interceptor squadron and charged with defending the Baltimore-Washington area against possible Soviet bomber attack. The unit soon converted to the F-86 Sabrejet, and in 1957 relocated to the Glenn L. Martin Company Airport, whose longer runway was necessary to support jet operations.
The Spring of 1968 brought considerable activity, with both the 135th and 175th being called out to help quell rioting in Baltimore following the assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., and elements of the 175th being federalized and deployed to Cannon Air Force Base, N.M., in response to the Pueblo Crisis in Korea. While mobilized, the unit trained Air Force pilots to serve as forward air controllers. The 175th returned home and demobilized that December.
The 135th endured multiple changes in designation, mission and aircraft during the 1960's and 1970s, switching first from special operations with the HU-16 to a tactical air support role, where it flew forward air control missions aboard O-2A Super Skymasters. Then in 1977, the unit converted to a tactical airlift mission, flying the C-7A Caribou. In 1980, the unit converted to the C-130 Hercules aircraft, which it has flown ever since. Being activated for Desert Storm and again since 9/11.
The 175th, which had flown the A-37 Dragonfly since turning in its F-86s in 1970, received brand new A-10 Thunderbolt II attack aircraft from the factory in Hagerstown, Md., beginning in 1979. The unit continues to fly the famed tank killer to this day.
Despite the end of the Cold War, the Maryland Air National Guard remained active in operations around the world through the remainder of the century. During the build-up to the 1991 Persian Gulf War, a number of unit personnel were mobilized to fill support roles. The same year, the 175th won Gunsmoke, the U.S. Air Force Worldwide Gunnery Competition, earning recognition as the best fighter unit in the Air Force.
The 135th participated in humanitarian relief efforts in Somalia, peacekeeping and humanitarian relief in Bosnia, the U.S. intervention in Haiti and the enforcement of U.N. sanctions against Iraq during the 1990s. A-10s from the 175th were likewise kept busy patrolling the skies over Bosnia and enforcing the "no-fly" zone over southern Iraq, where it was called upon to fly retaliatory strikes against Iraqi targets.
There is some more but I have taken up enough space under the British Army. I waited 7 years to pop off about this on the boards.
Regards, Tom
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Post by yanmacca on Feb 19, 2019 0:09:19 GMT
I am sure the Belgian and Luxembourge forces joined the British 29th Brigade and also elements assigned to both the US 1st Cavalry and 3rd ID.
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Post by yanmacca on Feb 19, 2019 0:12:34 GMT
I may have asked this before, but when you say National Guard divisions, are these similar to the British Territorial Divisions?
The Territorials [or Terries] are weekend soldiers who train with the regulars. During war time, these divisons went on active duty just like the regualars.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Feb 19, 2019 0:47:06 GMT
You are dead on Ian the National Guard units are attached to the states and can be Federalized. We also have the US Army Reserve as well as Marine Corps Reserve and Naval Reserve units.
Regards, Tom
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Post by quincannon on Feb 19, 2019 5:32:53 GMT
Similar Ian, but not the same. The National Guard has both Federal and State missions. The governor of any given state can call up the National Guard from his state to active duty for anything from finding a lost child to flood, fire, hurricane, or civil disturbance duty. The Federal role of the National Guard is to supplement regular forces in time of national emergency.
Pay attention here, because it is a fine point. The entire National Guard that existed in the 48 States and the several territories in 1940, was mobilized for active duty before Pearl Harbor. Some had been on duty for more than a year, while the remainder were all in Federal status at least six months prior to PH. The units were called up initially for a year by Presidential authority, and these units were filled to 100% strength by the draft (conscription). In October 1941 Congress passed by one vote to extend both our first peacetime conscription and to maintain the mobilized National Guard in active status for the unspecified end of the national emergency plus six months. That is the first time we have ever done that before war was declared.
The National Guard started with drills every so often, usually one evening a week, with an occasional weekend and two weeks of training in the summer. Gradually over time more and more people in the Guard became full time. These people were normally in the critical jobs within the unit, and have grown to where some units are up to 25 percent full time people, what we call our AGR program. The Air Guard has a higher percentage than the Army Guard because of the obvious need to maintain aircraft and keep flying facilities like Tom mentioned up and running on a 24 hour a day basis. The place he was stationed, the Glenn L. Martin Air Guard Base, which I think has at least part of it renamed for Ted Warfield was the old Martin aircraft factory up until the mid 1950's. When you land at a lot of commercial airports here in the States you will often see Air Guard flying facilities as part of those airports.
The old days of the weekend warriors, low readiness, and second hand crap equipment are now gone, thank God. Starting in about 1975 and continuing to this day the readiness of the Guard has increased to the point where they require very little post mobilization training, and are fully integrated with their active duty counterparts. There is an active duty brigade at Fort Polk, LA, for instance that, is now part of the 36th Texas Infantry Division. and an ARNG brigade in Vermont, that is assigned to the 10th Mountain Division of the Regular Army. I was lucky enough to be in on the start of this back in the 1980's, but what they have now done with the total integration of the Regulars, The Guard, and The Army Reserve, just blows my mind, a dream of long ago come true
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