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Post by quincannon on May 4, 2017 16:10:57 GMT
I was on my favorite model warship site (in the UK) this morning, reading the comments concerning a series of pictures posted by a very good friend of mine, a retired member of the RFA, (Similar to our United States Naval Service USNS). The pictures were of an Indian Navy frigate entering Plymouth Harbor yesterday. Beautiful ship by the way. One member took exception to the machine guns on the deck, being loaded and fully manned as the frigate entered a "friendly" harbor.
I was appalled at the ignorance expressed.
It occurred to me that it would do all of us well to forget Trafalgar, Coral Sea and Midway, if we are to fully understand how the nature of war has changed at sea. Bare in mind that the world's commerce still travels by sea, and as long as that is the case the sea lanes and harbors are likely and viable targets. Blow up a hotel causing a thousand killed and you have a tragedy. Blow up a LPG gas carrier in Boston Harbor and you incinerate a city.
We need to look at this, and therefore this thread is so established.
The fight at sea, and for control of the sea WILL be fought SPORADICALLY by carrier battle groups and subsurface elements. The fight at sea, and for control of the sea IS being fought, by patrol boats and coast guard cutters TODAY and EVERY DAY.
Studying naval is just like studying war on land. If you want to take a stroll down memory lane or review principles study Napoleon. If you want to kneel in the pew of the Church of What's Happening Now, you look to Marcel Bigeard. Throw away your Mahan and kiss a Coast Guardsman.
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Post by BrevetorCoffin on May 4, 2017 17:33:47 GMT
And our history challenged POTUS wants to cut funding to The Coast Guard which is also in the vanguard of the drug war and curtailing illegal immigration. Enough politics for now and worthwhile topic QC.
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Post by quincannon on May 4, 2017 18:07:50 GMT
Carved at the base of one of the statues flanking the entrance to the National Archives is the inscription - What s Past is Prologue. It does us well for every citizen, including history challenged presidents to take note of the fact.
More important to me at the moment is not his vast store of knowledge about the American Civil War, but rather his statement that he would be "honored" to meet with Baby Snooks. Doing so would insure that Baby Snooks gains even a more ironclad grip on power within that country (see my recent post to Dave on the Chancellorsville thread) and in so doing present even more of a danger than he already does to both his immediate neighbors and the world at large.
Donald Trump may be the duly elected President of the United States, and without one iota of disrespect to the office he holds, I will say that in this matter alone, he is a chicken shit amateur, possessing no strategic knowledge, a big flapping mouth that half the time does not know what he is saying, and is a complete dumb ass.
I am glad you like the thread David. I think we all to often fall back on our study of the past, and fail to realize that while the principles forged in the past remain a constant, the methods and imperatives of the present must also be thoroughly studied and absorbed.
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benteen
First Lieutenant
"Once An Eagle
Posts: 406
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Post by benteen on May 4, 2017 18:45:18 GMT
Beth/Gentlemen
It just so happens that in my latest copy of "Hollowed Ground" deals with Naval history from the Revolution to modern day. It has some web sites listed. which I will post. But you must be patient as I type with two fingers and it will take me 1/2 hr to do it.
Be Well
Dan
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benteen
First Lieutenant
"Once An Eagle
Posts: 406
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Post by benteen on May 4, 2017 18:50:35 GMT
The NHF (Naval Historical Foundation) has a growing family of web portals. The flagship site, www.navyhistory.org directs visitors to naval history research resources, member services and information about upcoming activities. If you are interested in exploring naval museums and historical ships across the country, visit www.usnavy museums.org. This site offers a window to naval heritage and history in your back yard. The International Journal for Naval History www.ijnhonline.org is a peer reviewed journal that welcomes contributions from up and coming scholars. NHFs www.navymuseumstore.com site offers an impressive selection of high quality nautical gifts and related naval merchandise from the Navy Museum Store within the National Museum of the U.S. Navy Be Well Dan |
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dave
Brigadier General
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Post by dave on May 4, 2017 19:03:30 GMT
QC
If the future of modern naval warfare is as you mentioned:
"The fight at sea, and for control of the sea WILL be fought SPORADICALLY by carrier battle groups and subsurface elements. The fight at sea, and for control of the sea IS being fought, by patrol boats and coast guard cutters TODAY and EVERY DAY."
Where if anywhere do the new Littoral Combat Ships (LCS) fit? Can they successful defend their selves from patrol boats in a green-water environment? The Independence class posse aluminum hulls while the Freedom class have aluminum superstructures. Aluminum does not have the structural strength of steel and will loose such strength at 500 degrees while steel will hold its till over 1,800 degrees. Look into the UK's HMS Sheffield loss during the Falkland Island campaign. Her aluminum superstructure allowed a horizontal spread of the fire which lead to her loss.
The LCS have a poor engineering reputation and have spent months in port undergoing repairs. If they are not serviceable what would Uncle Sam fall back on? Cyclone class patrol boats? Could the Arleigh Burke class destroyers operate successfully in a green-water combat zone? Do we have the ability to shift USCG cutters to Persian Gulf? Do we have enough cutters to serve in combat waters and perform their assigned mission here in the states?
Only if we could bring back Destroyer Squadron 23, "The Little Beavers" with Arleigh Burke to patrol off Iran for just a couple of years.
Regards
Dave
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Post by quincannon on May 4, 2017 20:50:34 GMT
Airplanes did not fly all that well Dave in the first ten years of their existence. There were poor designs that were constantly improved upon until they proved their viability. The same is true with anything new. It was not long ago that everyone under the sun was saying what a boondoggle the MV22 was, and now it is flying from every carrier and big deck anphib in the fleet and proving its value every day.
The same will prove true with the LCS, and I would refer any of your further questions to Captain Mathew Weber, the former Captain of USS. Freedom (LCS 1), and the newly appointed Commodore of Littoral Combat Squadron One in San Diego. He is a personal friend of mine. I taught his daughter in Sunday School. She is now a Sergeant of Marines. He would be happy to tell you what his squadron is fully capable of, and what is still a work in progress.
Instead of bringing back DESRON 23 why don't you advocate bringing back the Mace and Chain, Horse Cavalry, and the sailing ships of the line. Those ideas is just as obsolete.
Can a Burke venture into the littorals? Sure can. Is that the best place to employ them? Hell no.
I think we currently have ten Cyclones in the Persian Gulf region. They are made for and fit for that tasking.
We can put Coast Guard Cutters in any place on the planet that has water. The "Hero" Class are very capable in the littoral regions, and the "Legend" Class is as good as they come, and better in many ways that the current LCS variations (although they are constantly being improved and upgraded) and far better than the now decommissioned Perry's ever were.
There is nothing in the world as good as a Burke. Nothing. The Daring comes close, and is better than the early Burkes, but again nothing in the world can touch a Flight II A, and the ones coming into service now are even better than the IIA's.
Why in the name of heaven would you want eight or ten Burkes patrolling off of Iran. Do you really think they would attack us with their Navy on the high seas? You have been listening to all too much cable news on TV again. What they are capable of is best met by platforms meant to address their capabilities specifically. We are doing that.
One of the reasons I started this thread is as a vehicle to change the way we think about all forms of warfare. I mentioned Marcel Bigeard above for a reason. Bigeard was himself the prototype and inspiration for the fictional character Raspeguy. Bigeard and his acolytes changed in fact, what Larteguy changed in fiction with Raspeguy, de Glatigny, and Esclavier - "The Centurions". The novel changed the way smart men looked at war in the last half of the 20th and up to this point in the 21st Centuries, and Bigeard was Raspeguy.
Now the lessons Bigeard taught us are equally adaptable to sea and air, and not limited to land. Most of Bruno Bigeard's writings are in French, and while I have never read them completely, I have read excepts translated into English. What I have read is The Centurions and the follow up The Praetorians probably fifteen times each, and whenever I do, I discover something new and relevant.
Throw out the old ideas, ways, and means, embrace the timeless principles, and open the door on a new day. and stop watching all that fear mongering on cable TV, it will frigging make you blink, in an era where the strong mind is more important than the strong arm.
By the way DESRON 21 saw more combat that DESRIN 23 ever dreamed of. Don't believe me, then just ask yourself who led the fleet into Tokyo Bay and why. - Fletcher-Radford-Jenkins-Nicolas-O'Bannon-Chevalier- DeHaven, and a few more over time with I think 120 engagement (battle) stars between them. |
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dave
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,679
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Post by dave on May 4, 2017 22:43:06 GMT
Ir realize new weapon systems and vessels must be tested and will be improved. Aluminum issues and cares are not new and have been discussed in the recent past. My question was dealing with the present day situation not down the line.
Why in the world would I contact a serving Naval officer with my concerns and ideas regarding a new class of naval ships? I am participating in a discussion about modern naval warfare and how it will be conducted as you mentioned by patrol boats and USCG cutters in what I called a green-water environment. I have a concern regarding the performance of aluminum compared to steel. This issue was not created or brought up by me but rather but historians and military students based on past events such as HMS Sheffield, the USS Belknap and the destruction of the Australian HMAS Bundaburg patrol boat in the shipyard. I mean no disrespect to any service member or this country but am exercising my rights to raise questions.
I am aware that the LCS were designed for coastal waters but I was raising legitimate questions. My concerns 1) Are the LCS able to perform today without engine plant failures; 2) Is the aluminum question a reasonable and viable concern?; )3 Do we have enough USCG cutters to use in the Persian Gulf or littoral waters in the Pacific Asian area?;
4) Would the Burkes be effective if we needed them.
The remark about the "The Little Beavers" was made in jest but obviously not as humorous as intended. Even I, as dimwitted I am at times, know the Burkes were not designed for green-water actions but we have at this time 13 patrol boats and 8 LCS commissioned. We have more Burkes than other green-water vessels and that is what prompted my question.
I appreciate your comments regarding the USCG cutters as I know next to nothing about them and their capabilities in combat. I was concerned if we had enough to deploy around the globe and still meet their obligations around our coasts. It has been recently brought by a poster that the USCG is vitally involved in controlling both illegal immigration and preventing drug trafficking all on a very slender budget.
Regards
Dave
As we agreed about the previous occupant of the office of President would be accorded the respect to the office so we should continue in that spirit. I had concerns about the former President as I do about the current President but we support the office not the man. Colbert's performance the other night went beyond the bounds of humor and establishes a poor precedent and crossed the line in my opinion
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Post by quincannon on May 4, 2017 23:31:55 GMT
Well he is the guy I talk to when these questions come up, or I have questions of my own, and I am relating to you what he relates to me.
PT boats were made of plywood, and they operated in the littorals very effectively. You make the LCS heavier with steel. Heavy and speed do not go together. Speed is what potentially makes the LCS and some other platforms designed for the littorals as effective as they are. Now if you are thinking that by heavier construction you make these things bullet proof, you may be right, but they would not be "right" for the mission.
Now if anyone were to suggest that a Burke be made with aluminum, I would think them as crazy as you think me now. When you put on the suit, you receive your orders and do your best to carry them out, and there is no guarantee you are going to live through the process. Put another way. If you ain't losing people and things, you ain't fighting, and you were sent there to fight and maybe die.
Every ship has engine plant failures. The LCS through the teething process is gradually ironing them out. Another five or ten years and they will be a thing of the past. Hopefully all these issues will be solved by the time that the next generation frigates come on line, that are based upon the lessons learned with the LCS.
Burkes can easily be and are most effective in the littorals when they are part of a high-low mix containing both a Burke and smaller vessels.
The "Heros" officially still known as the Sentinel Class or more specifically fast response cutters have 20 in commission and 40 more under construction. There are about 25 or so LCS's in the total program, and I think all will be in service by 2020. The new frigate program will start construction as the LCS's clear the ways.
While the "Heros" can be used for counter narcotics and illegal immigration missions, they were designed and built for the counter-terror mission primarily, and the USCG has a number of smaller platforms that are better suited to these other "counter" missions.
DESRON 23 was a very good squadron, and no one can take anything away from their performance. The fact they were commanded by Burke, who became CNO, is the prime reason for their fame though. No one ever heard anything about Cactus Strike Force which morphed into DESRON 21. They fought the first string of the IJN and beat the snot out of them. All the rest that followed took on the bench warmers and also rans. There was no destroyer squadron in the United States Navy that performed as well as they did EVER.
Now to the President.
The incident I mentioned was a monumental blunder on his part. This far exceeds anything that Obama did, and he screwed the pooch several times as well. In a very few words President Trump validated the existence of that fat little pig. When the President of the United States speaks his words are for all the world, and that stupid son of a bitch gave Kim a gift that will keep him in power from now until the end of time if he want to remain that long.
There is a prohibition in my profession about making a derogatory remark about the President. But what I will tell you is this that if it becomes a choice between the security and welfare of the United States and a derogatory remark about the current occupant of the office, who has done something so monumentally stupid, guess which one I am going to choose. If he wishes to press the point I would gladly accept a call back to active duty to attend my own courts martial.
I did not see Colbert. I never watch late night pretend-comedy. I have heard reports that he was out of line. If so he should apologize and sin no more.
What I am talking about here though is not so goddamned funny, and you above all here who have been most concerned with the Korea situation should know that better than anyone else.
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dave
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,679
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Post by dave on May 4, 2017 23:37:32 GMT
Gallows humor has long been part of man's makeup. My jest was not appreciated, so be it.
Regards
Dave
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Post by BrevetorCoffin on May 4, 2017 23:47:51 GMT
Gallows humor has long been part of man's makeup. My jest was not appreciated, so be it. Regards Dave Brother Dave, to borrow from the old UNCF commercials, a sick mind is a terrible thing to waste 😉. I for one adore a little off beat humor as you can tell from my penchant for creative names for Captain Keyhole and his band of buffoons. |
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Post by quincannon on May 4, 2017 23:57:15 GMT
There is no humor, gallows or otherwise, that is appropriate when the welfare and security of the United States is the subject.
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Post by BrevetorCoffin on May 5, 2017 0:35:41 GMT
Having never served and not been a part of national security decisions I will still beg to differ slightly regardless. Members of armed forces have been known to refer to themselves as Lee's Miserable (Victor Hugo's book was published in 1862 and a favorite among those in the ANV who could read) and Douglas MacArthur was mocked by his own troops at Bataan as Dugout Doug. The words to John Brown's Body were parodied to reflect his holing up on Corregidor. While situations where peoples' lives are at stake are no laughing matter, a little humor brings us back to being human again and helps us deal with miserable situations and terrifying possibilities.
How many of us have cringed and wryly smiled briefly at the old "City morgue, you stab 'em we slab 'em" joke? Not all that funny but brings in a little reality. My 2 cents worth.
Best,
David
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Post by quincannon on May 5, 2017 0:53:00 GMT
Totally different. Patton's men often said "His Guts-Our Blood" Bill Mauldin used to drive Patton crazy with his cartoons. Gallows humor is a part of who we are as human beings. It is in fact a morale builder if it is used correctly.
It was a little bit different with MacArthur. His troops were calling him a coward, for not coming to Bataan. The Marines on Guadalcanal felt the same way about him, and if you listen to some of the things they said it was pretty raw. MacArthur was a lot of things, most of them bad, but a coward was not one of them. There are people to this day though who think he should have disobeyed his orders and stayed in the Philippines. His operational performance there was miserable, and he played a huge part in the suffering experienced on Bataan by his miscalculations of December 1941. Personally I think he should have stayed with his troops and defied orders. Commander's like ship captains had better be prepared to go down with their soldiers or they have no right to command.
I am infuriated presently about the stupidity, and there is no other words for it, with regards to the Presidents words concerning the North Korean leader. If one man dies because of that flapping, not giving a thought to what he is saying, mouth of his I hope he burns in the hottest corner of hell for a dozen eternities.
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Post by BrevetorCoffin on May 5, 2017 1:45:37 GMT
Totally different. Patton's men often said "His Guts-Our Blood" Bill Mauldin used to drive Patton crazy with his cartoons. Gallows humor is a part of who we are as human beings. It is in fact a morale builder if it is used correctly. It was a little bit different with MacArthur. His troops were calling him a coward, for not coming to Bataan. The Marines on Guadalcanal felt the same way about him, and if you listen to some of the things they said it was pretty raw. MacArthur was a lot of things, most of them bad, but a coward was not one of them. There are people to this day though who think he should have disobeyed his orders and stayed in the Philippines. His operational performance there was miserable, and he played a huge part in the suffering experienced on Bataan by his miscalculations of December 1941. Personally I think he should have stayed with his troops and defied orders. Commander's like ship captains had better be prepared to go down with their soldiers or they have no right to command. I am infuriated presently about the stupidity, and there is no other words for it, with regards to the Presidents words concerning the North Korean leader. If one man dies because of that flapping, not giving a thought to what he is saying, mouth of his I hope he burns in the hottest corner of hell for a dozen eternities. Agreed that Trump is a moron and embarrassment. I wish I could find the political cartoon from a few months ago which shows Lincoln and his "Four score and seven years ago" while sitting in the chair shown in the Lincoln Memorial then Dumb F**k sitting on the pot with his pants down saying "first grab her by the...." Best, David |
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