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Post by quincannon on Apr 26, 2017 13:38:32 GMT
I suspect any point of vantage, and there were several would be OK. It would also be a momentary thing though.
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azranger
Brigadier General
Ranger
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Post by azranger on Apr 26, 2017 14:00:47 GMT
Looking at Google you can see where BRE turns toward the ford Ds area at a Y and another lower part continues toward the Trading Post. The part that turns toward ford Ds has artifact locations. Also in construction of the old road many artifacts were found including a Colt SAA.
If you can see the dirt tank just above it was an Indian artifact location. Below it and toward BRE along the road was the Kellogg marker.
The artifact location we walked to was much further back on BRE and across from the visitor center. It is the site that has cavalry and Indian artifacts. Directly across from that near the cemetery/visitor center at one of the reunions an Indian positioned the infantry shooting toward BRE. That photo has been around a lot but the direction toward BRE was not connected to it for me until Mike Donahue discussed it.
From that location on BRE you can see down to the Kellogg marker location and its quite obvious that the new road construction filled in the drainage.
Regards
Steve
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mac
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Post by mac on Apr 26, 2017 22:05:12 GMT
Great description AZ and makes sense to me. Naturally everything in this particular discussion is speculative but I think we need to tease out possibilities of how the action here could have proceeded. Remembering that this is an action based on mobility with each position being transitory I am taken by the notion of Kellogg being found near a place that was conceivably occupied by Custer. I think the two were probably never that far apart. I note we have no evidence of time signature for any of this. Sure speculative but interesting. We need to keep AZ's geometry of sites in mind as we go on. So far a deployment in line into the valley off CR and BRE. Warrior accounts suggest that they are already concealed in the valley and along the river on the same side of the river as the cavalry. If I suggest that it would be quite easy for the new warriors arriving, and we know they were, to move from the village, past Custer's right flank and into his rear before crossing the river is that reasonable? This would bring them across the river out past the trading post. Interestingly we know the Wolftooth band meet early that day in that general area. Cheers
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mac
Brigadier General
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Post by mac on Apr 26, 2017 22:12:50 GMT
Can I note that out opposite the casino there is an old arm of the river.Was that active at the time of the battle? Cheers
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Post by quincannon on Apr 27, 2017 17:07:20 GMT
Given the opportunity Indians will always hold/distract the nose and seek the flanks. Custer gave them the opportunity, and the terrain was conducive. The outcome therefore was preordained.
That area of flat ground between Ford D and Crow Agency could be a great killing ground for a regiment, and a death sentence for a battalion. When you have only a pair of deuces in a game of five card stud, and the other guy has three bullets showing, it is time to fold, not bluff.
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mac
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Post by mac on Apr 27, 2017 21:52:49 GMT
I guess that says it all..and Custer agreed and pulled out. On another thread Ian suggested that some archaeological work could be done along the drainage in the Ford D area. At the time I thought it would be a good idea....now I would volunteer for the crew! I especially like the look of that old arm of the river in the left of the valley. Cheers
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Post by yanmacca on Apr 30, 2017 11:01:07 GMT
Mac, do you mean this arm of the river, which is shown on the Bonifide map? This image shows the river course in 1876 and how the river juts out and this river course would mean that to get north of the village, the cavalry would have to swing wide to traverse this feature, thus adding time and distance to their journey;
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Apr 30, 2017 11:25:43 GMT
Ian, you can see that on the ground to this day.
Regards, Tom
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Post by yanmacca on Apr 30, 2017 11:32:59 GMT
Tom you are correct my friend;
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Post by quincannon on Apr 30, 2017 16:08:42 GMT
Don't believe that is the area Mac is referring to.
The place that is significant to what Mac is saying is west of the highway, where the river again turns northward. That is the place where the threat to Custer's flank and rear would be had he been allowed to carry the assault forward and reach the river.
The place he s referring to is not on the Bonafides Map
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Post by yanmacca on Apr 30, 2017 17:50:46 GMT
Mac, please give me a few pointers my friend and like good friends do, I will source out a good image for you as we are still only few in number on this site/board and we need to help and support each other.
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Post by quincannon on Apr 30, 2017 19:10:56 GMT
Your source map can be constructed from Google Earth, moving westward from the left end of the portion of the Bonafides Map you posted.
Doing that you will see the river almost immediately turning northward west of the railroad and highway bridge positions, continuing northward until it is past Crow Agency. That river course change boxes in the open area north of Ford(s) D, and as such presents a clear and present danger to the flanks and rear of any force assaulting Ford(s) D.
This matter was discussed at length with Mac, when we had dinner together as it relates to such an attack.
On the other hand had this same river course been utilized to attack only those in the open area between the high ground (BRE/CR) and the river, while Custer protected his flank from any Indian incursion across Ford D, then this same area would have bee a death trap for the Indians. That is why I remarked to him earlier that this ground under consideration would have been great killing ground for a regiment and at the same time a death trap for a battalion.
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Post by yanmacca on May 1, 2017 8:48:05 GMT
I have extended my search;
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mac
Brigadier General
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Post by mac on May 1, 2017 10:31:17 GMT
You guys don't need me! Ian your last picture is spot on! I was referencing that old arm that runs on the left side of the highway in your photo, as QC says. Long ago, well before any thought of this theory, QC brought up the fact that when he was at the battlefield his attention was captured by the possibilities presented in this region around BRE. The problem then for Custer is one of judgement shall I say. He was trying a solution that was viable but not with the resources that were available to him. Bad judgement will get you killed as quickly as anything else, people do it all the time on the roads. As I said earlier Ian your suggestion of surveying the drainage in this region is well made. Cheers
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Post by yanmacca on May 1, 2017 10:34:28 GMT
Thanks Mac, you are a good bloke, who has put a lot of effort into this board, so we do need you.
What would you give to be a part of the team to comb that drainage with a geophysical survey and metal detectors, it would be quite a good week end.
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