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Post by quincannon on Apr 23, 2017 15:09:09 GMT
Those of you that have the Bonafides map, look on it and you will see a notation of Custer's battalion order of march. Then you will see why I continually harp on this John Ford idea of how these things played out, Bonafides has them in battalion column marching along like a line of ducks going to water. That is the idea, the vision that prevails in the public view.
What is attempting to be portrayed there without any explanatory note is Custer's axis of advance. I someone does not know the difference then it must be continually pointed out. The axis is the thrust line of direction, not the formation the battalion was in.
It is the same way with every other map you see. There is a direction, a thrust line, a route you see taken, not the formation they were in. To explain it so that at least David (him living here) can visualize, If my direction of attack was straight up Interstate 25 from Denver to Fort Collins, you can bet your sweet ass all my forces would not be lined up in column one behind the other on I25. Rather I25 would be my thrust line with my forces arrayed on the highway and on either side giving me all around protection from both east (toward the prairie), and west (toward the mountains). There would be additional forces well to my front, and some to my rear. Still if I wanted to portray my movement in graphics there would still be that line tracing I25
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At Ford D
Apr 23, 2017 17:34:15 GMT
via mobile
Post by BrevetorCoffin on Apr 23, 2017 17:34:15 GMT
This is all remnding me of "crossing the T" in naval parlance.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Apr 23, 2017 17:34:19 GMT
Good stuff guys, I have no preference for design of approach, beyond the integrity and the security of the whole. Dan/Benteen, while you are correct regarding the individual training of skills, there would be officers and senior NCO's to guide the formations. The diamond shape or two columns abreast would not matter and the newbies would still be following the men in front of him. Also the two columns 3 by 2 would be somewhat balanced by HQ filling out the weak column somewhat to the lead. When they turn to deploy in attack/combat formation, you would probably see line formations HQ and 2 followed by 3. Those are just my rambling thoughts on the matter
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Post by quincannon on Apr 23, 2017 21:36:18 GMT
Spot on David. When your T gets crossed you might as well kiss your butt adios. Wellington crossed the Old Guard's T in the last phase of Waterloo. Wellington could put maximum firepower forward, and the French minimal and the Old Guard has not been heard from since.
Tom is also correct. Formations are dictated by threat and the terrain you traverse. The main point is all around security and there are multiple ways to insure that. The diamond is a favorite of mine, and my analysis of LBH terrain tells me that the diamond is what I would use. If someone else chooses another that gets the job done just as well, they should use it.
You only have three things that should concern you when choosing a formation.
1) Security and early warning of either approach or the enemy being in place waiting for you.
2) The ability to rapidly change formations to facilitate your plans to conduct an assault on a selected objective.
3) The third is similar to Number 2. The ability to rapidly change formations to address a threat that emerges from any of the four cardinal directions.
Do this and you are golden. Ignore this and you are dead.
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mac
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Post by mac on Apr 24, 2017 0:18:03 GMT
Mac, I will take your post and Steve's one at a time.
Mac: As the battalion moved in a diamond, those companies would have been in company column. To form a line for the assault (remember line give you maximum firepower forward on a broad front) the would have gone to the high ground of CR and BRE still in company column by multiple routes the dry water course between CR and BRE being the route for one or two of them, the others by different routes. Upon reaching the high ground they would have come into a company line, all of them therefore forming a battalion line across those ridge tops. That point, the ridge tops would be what we would call today the line of deployment. Had they preplanned that place in advance, and I am sure they would have after seeing the terrain from some little distance, that same place would have been called the probable line of deployment (the place where you expect to deploy). From that point on they would be in an assault formation moving forward with maximum firepower to the front.
I should mention that battalion and company PLD's are different places. In this instance the battalion PLD is the point where the individual companies started moving out of the diamond formation and onto the ridge tops. The company PLD's were the places they came out of column into line.
I read this as they would form a line on the ridges then proceed down into the valley in a line. Is that the picture? Cheers
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Post by quincannon on Apr 24, 2017 0:36:34 GMT
Most likely. The ridgeline is easily definable. Orders like deploy on the ridges, expect trouble on the other side.
The up side is, that if the place you expected trouble is empty, you can reform into some secure formation and continue onward. If the place is full of Indians, you look like you are a genius for about thirty seconds, until the magnitude of the Indian numbers dawn on you, and you say - Oh Shit.
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mac
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Post by mac on Apr 24, 2017 4:38:18 GMT
Would the move off the ridges into the valley floor then be a line pivoting on the left flank, that being around Cemetery Ridge? Or is that too simplistic? Cheers
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Apr 24, 2017 11:06:05 GMT
Mac, from either security deployment march Chuck is talking about you can wheel into that line, and it may be done before coming over the ridge without anyone in the LBH valley observing you.
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Apr 24, 2017 12:38:04 GMT
Chuck
I figured Clair would not be completely wrong. So why would Reno go into a line? I am not sure he knew he was moving toward a "Big Village".
So if the Indians he is chasing are spread across the valley and maybe separated as much as .5 miles as they moved toward the Big Village would that explain why Reno went into line?
The line formation with two companies forward and one in reserve quickly changed to all three on line. What was Reno adjusting to when he did that?
Thanks
Steve
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Post by quincannon on Apr 24, 2017 13:04:10 GMT
Mac: In theory just like the swinging of a left mounted door. In practice, probably like the left company swinging like a left mounted door, and the other four echeloned right and also swinging but swinging by companies as they arced around that pivot. The swinging motion would separate each of those companies so that when seen from above that sweeping motion would be staggered with each company being to the right rear of their neighbor to their immediate left.
Tom: Correct again. If you make the assumption that a likely place for the enemy to be is west of the ridgeline you move into company lines as you move on the east side of the ridge line so you may come across the top in line. The company that would have stayed in column the longest would probably be the right flaking company. This is where knowing more about what Wolf Tooth was doing and where he was would be most helpful.
Steve: Damned if I know why he did it when he did. The reason you go into line is to bring firepower forward. It was his call. We have to accept his judgment as the on scene commander. Just because I think he did it too soon, does not mean that I would not reserve the right to change my mind if I had seen what he saw. Keep in mind you and I are commenting with benefit of hindsight.
The commitment of his reserve was apparently a response to the perception of threat around his left. I have never gotten any real handle and exactly where that spot was on the map.
The only things that anyone can be really critical about in this whole battle is splitting the regiment at such distances when battle was in the offing, and thrusting northward on the bluffs. Both of those were Custer's personal errors, and the rest of those people were trying to do the best job they could under the circmstances.
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mac
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Post by mac on Apr 25, 2017 12:41:03 GMT
This deployment fits very well with warrior accounts as discussed in the 5 companies thread. It seems to me that Custer's left flank is at Cemetery Ridge and to the south of it are fords from the village area. I feel this would require him to place men on Cemetery Ridge to "anchor" this flank. He has not a lot of men to work with in this valley. As his line moves around off BRE the right flank will be presented to the river, as it runs up the other side of the valley. I think this is a problem. Cheers
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Post by quincannon on Apr 25, 2017 13:59:24 GMT
Concur.
The right flank would be exposed in an attack that concentrated on what we call the Fords D. I don't know if there were any fords in the area of your concern Mac, don't know if they are known to anyone, but if the were there you can bet the Indians would know of their presence and use them. The danger of course is getting that right enveloped.
The left almost speaks for itself, but I am not at all sure if Custer would be aware of the fords immediately to the south of CR (now known collectively as C). They were fairly well hidden by terrain, and in actuality were just defiles (cracks in the ground) leading eastward from the river. Very narrow in width, but usable to deploy from, if your opposition (the Army) did not realize their presence or significance.
You mentioned that these things fit into the five company scenario. I agree, but lets take a step back.
We know of cavalry presence on CR, and we know of cavalry presence on BRE near the trading post. Those two places are nearly a mile apart. Let us drop off of our five company theory for a moment and go back to the conventional. If there were only two companies up there, and they were separated by the distance the artifact finds say they were, what do you think the chances are of them being able to extract themselves and reach their final positions. My opinion is next to none. That would be particularly true of what we must assume would have to be Company F down by the trading post. Holding it together while fighting your way back up BRE to their final position on LSH would be nearly impossible on that terrain.
It only becomes possible if there were five.
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mac
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Post by mac on Apr 25, 2017 23:26:56 GMT
We know of cavalry presence on CR, and we know of cavalry presence on BRE near the trading post. Those two places are nearly a mile apart. Let us drop off of our five company theory for a moment and go back to the conventional. If there were only two companies up there, and they were separated by the distance the artifact finds say they were, what do you think the chances are of them being able to extract themselves and reach their final positions. My opinion is next to none. That would be particularly true of what we must assume would have to be Company F down by the trading post. Holding it together while fighting your way back up BRE to their final position on LSH would be nearly impossible on that terrain. It only becomes possible if there were five. Excellent point! In this arrangement Custer would need a point from which he could control the movement of his troops in the valley. I do not remember this area well enough but using google there seems to be a high point between the old entrance road and the new entrance road opposite the now ploughed valley floor. Would this be a point for Custer to view and control the deployment? Cheers
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Post by quincannon on Apr 26, 2017 3:49:45 GMT
Are you talking two company or five company?
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mac
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Post by mac on Apr 26, 2017 5:28:55 GMT
I am back on 5 company as the main discussion. Cheers
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