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Post by yanmacca on Mar 2, 2017 17:33:07 GMT
Trails;
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Post by quincannon on Mar 2, 2017 17:40:50 GMT
Ouch Beth, but you are probably correct.
Was he not directed onto the bluffs Ian by scouts, saying in effect over here, don't go there. If that is the case then there must have been some doubt in the scout's minds as to what Benteen would do. They obviously thought he had a choice.
But for. Had YOU (as Benteen) known only that there were two trails, knowing that one led directly into the valley (Reno), and the other leading onto the bluffs (Custer)and having no further clue as to where that one would ultimately lead, and hearing the firing coming from the valley, WHAT WOULD YO DO. To me the answer to that is quite simple, ride to the sound of the guns. The note gave Benteen no guidance in the matter.
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azranger
Brigadier General
Ranger
Posts: 1,824
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Post by azranger on Mar 2, 2017 17:43:44 GMT
Steve, so going by that information then, Benteen and the following MacDougal were actually on their way to meet up with Custer and not Reno? At what point did Benteen find out that Custer separated from Reno?
From Martin?
It's not in the Martin note.
At what point would Custer have sent some communication to Benteen that he moved across MTC and was looking for a link up or not.
Regards
Steve
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azranger
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Ranger
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Post by azranger on Mar 2, 2017 17:46:12 GMT
Two plus miles away, terrain restrictions, differences in elevation. Possible maybe. Probable, not so much. Think it more likely that he saw the mid-stage of the breakout. Regardless, the point is still the same, Benteen would do nothing until he had fulfilled his responsibility for the pack trains. Acting in haste in a situation so uncertain, is the one time the "Benteen" rule does not apply, Doing it deliberately, rather than doing it now, makes more sense. I think it a lot quicker to get to Reno Hill while be chased by Indians then to follow Custer's route to Reno Hill.
Regards
AZ Ranger
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azranger
Brigadier General
Ranger
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Post by azranger on Mar 2, 2017 17:55:18 GMT
I think it is near impossible to do that Chuck. He does not think the way you do. He shows up at the LBHA meeting buts does not pay to attend. I heard people talking about him. He sat between Will Hutchison (a marine and former law enforcement officer) and myself and talked about his arrests. I think he stated it is up to 5 arrests. The last was possessing weapons that he used in reenacting.
Regards
Steve
He probably thought the three of you were having a bonding experience. You two as law officers and he as a criminal. You have so much in common. Beth
The next morning it was Tom, myself and Will H. having breakfast together.
Regards
Steve
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Post by yanmacca on Mar 2, 2017 17:57:43 GMT
I really don't know how to answer any of the above questions except that I never said anything about who guided Benteen, I did say that Martini gave him the note and that's it, which brings me to that map I have posted detailing the line of march of Custer and Benteen and the point where Reno withdrew and this point is smack in the middle of where 1. Custer rode, 2. Benteen had heading and 3. Reno broke out to, now I have just copied the trails off other authors maps, so in effect it is not my work, but doesn't anyone find it strange that Reno hill was used by all three battalions at some point.
If that map is correct, then to me Benteen was following Custer and Reno bumped into Benteen, Custer had since vacated the area and was probably on battle ridge.
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Mar 2, 2017 18:03:01 GMT
I think Dave, Colt, and Dan can relate to how a le officer can deal with all different kinds of people. It takes training and experience but the person being talked with will more likely reveal things to a trained and experience officer than someone calling them names. You don't have to like someone to talk. It also gives you a chance to form your own opinion.
Regards
Steve
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Post by quincannon on Mar 2, 2017 18:22:19 GMT
It does not matter a hill of beans which trail Benteen was following, on purpose, inadvertently, or any other reason under the sun.
What matters is what was happening in conjunction with following that trail, and EXACTLY where he was on that trail when he first had an indication that the situation was changing and fluid. With each change of situation comes a point of decision.
Reno crossing Benteen's trail was inadvertent on the part of Reno. He had no idea that Benteen had been directed onto the bluffs. Benteen meeting Reno was a deliberate act on Benteen's part in that he had been directed to that place and chose to follow the directions.
Had it not been for the scouts waving and saying come this way, Benteen very well have made the decision to swing off of Custer's path and follow Reno's trail, at the point where he heard the ruckus in the valley.
Benteen did not have the knowledge that we have in this matter, and his possible actions must be looked at through his eyes and not our own. That is a difficult thing to do.
NOW: If that goddamned note had said Benteen I am on the frigging bluffs, follow me despite anything else you see or I will have your sweet ass for breakfast - you have just taken any options out of Benteen's hands. That was not the case. Benteen was in command of his little corner of the world with no restrictions placed upon him other than to see to the welfare of the pack trains. That is how it must be looked at if we are to properly evaluate Benteen's actions.
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benteen
First Lieutenant
"Once An Eagle
Posts: 406
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Post by benteen on Mar 2, 2017 18:37:17 GMT
I have been banned from several places, one or two which served alcoholic beverages Dave, that is a right of passage for a young man, it's a part of growing up. Right of passage my foot.........How was I to know she was the bartenders wife Be Well Dan
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colt45
First Lieutenant
Posts: 439
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Post by colt45 on Mar 2, 2017 19:01:40 GMT
As I recall, Benteen's RCOI testimony indicated he came upon the place where the two trails diverged, and he paused to decide what to do, and while thinking about it, heard and saw the ruckus in the valley, and saw troops heading back across the river and up the hill. He then saw the scouts indicating to come up the bluffs. If I interpreted his testimony correctly, he went up the bluffs not only due to the scouts, but because he saw troops heading up the bluffs, and at this point in time, assumed the entire regiment was up there. At the trail divide, he didn't know how the regiment had split up, nor who was in the valley.
If it were me seeing things like that, I would also assume the entire regiment is up the bluffs or in the process of getting up the bluffs under fire, and that the scouts are correct in signalling to come up the bluffs. I think Benteen expected to find the whole gang up there, not just Reno and his 3 companies.
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Post by quincannon on Mar 2, 2017 19:28:45 GMT
I think you are correct.
Even with the two trails, hearing what was going on, seeing the breakout to the bluff, and being directed up there by the scouts, would make me think they were all there as well.
Seeing only what he saw, the two trails, would make one think Georgie is pulling a slicky. One goes in and one goes around, and both meet at the same place. That would be the first thing that would come to mind if you saw nothing but a trail going down the valley, and another on the bluff heading in roughly the same direction
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dave
Brigadier General
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Post by dave on Mar 2, 2017 22:28:41 GMT
I think Dave, Colt, and Dan can relate to how a le officer can deal with all different kinds of people. It takes training and experience but the person being talked with will more likely reveal things to a trained and experience officer than someone calling them names. You don't have to like someone to talk. It also gives you a chance to form your own opinion.
Regards
Steve Steve I found that listening was the most effective questioning technique I used in Academic Hearings, Student Life Hearings as well as criminal interviews. Silence makes the guilty very uncomfortable so I always gave them their opportunity to fill the silence with their explanations. Kinda of like giving them a spade and let them dig themselves further into a hole. Some of the most difficult cases I was involved in were Date Rape allegations brought before the academic discipline hearings not the legal case. He said she said is impossible to determine the truth unless their are witnesses or drug results. I am sure it is even worse today than when I was working. Regards Dave
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Post by quincannon on Mar 3, 2017 0:29:03 GMT
Well then use silence. If everyone would he would talk to himself, just like Mathew Harrison Brady, and pretty soon no one would listen.
The only difference is that Brady was once a good man. The other was never a good man, who became worse with time.
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dave
Brigadier General
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Post by dave on Mar 3, 2017 1:14:35 GMT
"Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding." Proverbs 17:28 Regards Dave
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Post by quincannon on Mar 3, 2017 2:00:59 GMT
"Kick the bastard in the balls, do it in a manner where he does not notice until it is too late, and maintain a smile and sense of good humor while doing so"
Chuckie 03:02.
That's how I feel
What I would do is ignore him, and ignore him most when you feel like ripping his head off and craping down his neck. I am convinced that he does what he does, so that he will have the opportunity to show the world his superior intellect and knowledge. Don't give him that chance by getting your bowels in a state of disorder over him as you have these last days. Sometimes the hardest thing is to do nothing, but it is also the best thing.
The whole goddamned LBH community know what he is. They laugh at him on a daily basis. That will eventually be his undoing. There will come a point where he can no longer endure the laughter and the scorn. At that point it will be all over, and it will be over by his own hand.
There is no man on this earth I detest more than him. Some come close, but he is number 1.
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