|
Post by quincannon on Feb 28, 2017 22:23:54 GMT
Would Benteen continue? Don't know. Can't know. It would depend upon what he thought of the situation at the time. Had he arrived before they broke from the timber, I think there is a distinct possibility he would have crossed over Ford A, and ridden to the sound of the guns. What I do not think he would do though, is move in that direction without first securing or at least seeing the welfare of the pack trains by some means. He had been given responsibility for them, by order. That does not necessarily mean wait for them. That would be his decision as to how to go about executing his responsibility. One thing is for sure though, if anything happened to them because he acted in haste or did not see to their welfare, he was the one who would kick the can.
Number 1 defensible position: It can be taken out of context two ways. First, as Colt related, it was the "first or number 1 thing that should have been done as in - First get off that prairie and into some cover (but mostly concealment) then access any further action to be taken from there. Another situation where you review the bidding. Second, when taken along with the rest of what he said, one gets the impression that he was not all that hot on the idea.
Digressing: What Benteen said moments ago here is the only real thing that matters. When you are up to your ass in trouble, stop digging and do something different, right or wrong, but do it now. If you do that, I do not care if it is the Almighty Himself who is critical of your actions, it is the man on the spot, the man responsible who must make the best decision he can.
Idiots look for scapegoats. Responsible analysts look for who was responsible. The only scapegoat looker fors you have so far made the acquaintance of in your LBH journey Dave are idiots. They should be shunned as idiots are shunned and you should neither wear out your fingers, or waste your breath dealing with that rabble. I have had my difference with a lot of folks over the years, and still do, some very recently. What I will say though is that those who make the obvious effort to seek answers, while I may disagree with those answers, are still in my opinion trying to do the right thing. Those though that come to the subject feeding you their version, because of the personal prejudices they have are generally a waste of both their flesh and your time.
|
|
dave
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,679
|
Post by dave on Feb 28, 2017 23:02:26 GMT
Dan I loved your it's better to do something, anything, when you don't have any idea at what to do concept idea! To a former university administrator to act without following state procedures etc would be an anathema. So you can see my difficulty understanding as to what to do in an emergency situation as faced by Reno.
You yourself are a combat vet which certainly enables you understand the stress and confusion Reno faced in the timber area. I cannot imagine how time flies or crawls in a firefight but he had to act as to delay was death, is that a fair thought? I fail to see how arm chair experts can claim that Reno left too early and should have known help was coming and maintain his position in the timber. I bet when bullets fly everything is out the door and survival instincts take over. Regards Dave
|
|
|
Post by deadwoodgultch on Feb 28, 2017 23:46:13 GMT
Dave,
You have all the right answers, on your own, and above. 1st you are banned, 2nd the clown would hear none of it and then attempt to belittle you, 3rd the head hussar would kiss his ring and agree. Give it a rest!
Regards, Tom
|
|
azranger
Brigadier General
Ranger
Posts: 1,824
|
Post by azranger on Feb 28, 2017 23:53:02 GMT
I agree that it was defensible on the 28 since the Indians had left.
|
|
mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
|
Post by mac on Mar 1, 2017 0:20:38 GMT
Just quickly jumping in Dave I once did a calculation using Fred's timeline and it turned out that even if Reno stayed 15 minutes longer it would have no impact on the outcome. I can't give it to you as I did not keep it but remember when Benteen arrives Reno is already "out". If he waited until Benteen arrived he may not have got out but even if he did he would still join with Benteen. In the past discussions as to what Benteen would do if he arrived and Reno was still in the valley have resulted in the decision that Benteen would not "fly to his rescue". In the real world commanders do not commit to valleys where there is a conflict raging without being very sure what they are getting into. Read this as he would take a lot of time to get any way into that valley. Cheers
|
|
|
Post by Beth on Mar 1, 2017 0:28:31 GMT
I think there is a set of Little Bighorn enthusiasts who view the fact that Reno and Benteen survived the battle as an insult to themselves and Custer. I think they would rather have had the whole 7th wiped out due to Custer's mistakes than anyone survive. It's almost like survivor's guilt by proxy.
It's easy to put on a fake period costume and swagger around the outer edges of a convention and play make believe that you would make better choices than Reno and Benteen combined and manage to ride to Custer's rescue and then spend the rest of their lives basking in Custer's shadow.. I am willing to bet though that if any one of them had been in Reno's position on that day, they probably would have been curled up in a fetal position, calling for their mommy and pissing their pants in fear.
They seem to ignore that Reno had a choice to make, stay in the timber in a situation that was growing dire by the moment or escape. He escaped and saved a large number of men's lives. They (those who want to second guess Reno) also ignore the fact that it was Custer who put Reno in the position of having to make the call of breakout or die.
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Mar 1, 2017 3:52:31 GMT
Dave: I have not looked over there in ages, and as such have no idea what they are up to.
Just remember that whatever you do, you are a hell of a lot smarter than either one of the clown princes so far mentioned. Therefore seek revenge, do not give them the benefit of your intelligence.
|
|
azranger
Brigadier General
Ranger
Posts: 1,824
|
Post by azranger on Mar 1, 2017 11:28:31 GMT
Here is an issue to think about. Most of us were there and new people sometimes start there. There is no way that keogh will recommend this board because it makes sense to him.
For us it is a recruiting ground to some degree.
Regards
AZ Ranger
|
|
|
Post by yanmacca on Mar 1, 2017 15:47:34 GMT
I cut my teeth on the black board, but I spent some time on Billy Keogh's pitch, I went there because DC was at his height and I was sick of defending myself against someone I had no regard for. But when I think back on my time on the brown board, it felt like I was being reassured by someone who was actual manipulating me.
|
|
benteen
First Lieutenant
"Once An Eagle
Posts: 406
|
Post by benteen on Mar 1, 2017 19:11:36 GMT
Dan I loved your it's better to do something, anything, when you don't have any idea at what to do concept idea! To a former university administrator to act without following state procedures etc would be an anathema. So you can see my difficulty understanding as to what to do in an emergency situation as faced by Reno. You yourself are a combat vet which certainly enables you understand the stress and confusion Reno faced in the timber area. I cannot imagine how time flies or crawls in a firefight but he had to act as to delay was death, is that a fair thought? I fail to see how arm chair experts can claim that Reno left too early and should have known help was coming and maintain his position in the timber. I bet when bullets fly everything is out the door and survival instincts take over. Regards Dave Dave, Thank you for the kind words my friend, glad you liked it. Dont cut yourself short I believe you would do fine in an emergency. Yes what you say is fair. As we are discussing Major Reno, keep this in mind. When it "Hits the fan" or as our friend Ian would say 'It becomes a sticky situation" and yes it becomes survival mode, soldiers fight for each other, that is their best chance of survival. However an Officer does not have that luxury of his own survival. He is duty bound and responsible for the lives of his men, and must make the best decision available to him to save as many as he can. Unfortunatly to often at the cost of his own life. Be Well Semper Fi to you and Uncle Ernie Dan
|
|
dave
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,679
|
Post by dave on Mar 1, 2017 20:16:21 GMT
QC I am not sure about the brain cells and their value as I have to write everything down as I readily forget things. I keep an eye on the Great Pretender 'casue if he can fool or confuse me as to the truth he may well fool others. Opinions expressed as facts by a self proclaimed expert with false credentials is a danger to scholarship. Assembling a specious gravitas to deceive is criminal.
AZ's statement expresses my concerns far better than I can about the disinformation being posted on that board: "Here is an issue to think about. Most of us were there and new people sometimes start there. There is no way that keogh will recommend this board because it makes sense to him. For us it is a recruiting ground to some degree." Would that we may perform that task of attracting visitors and new members who seek the truth!
Deadwood, I disagree with letting it rest as we can see by the number of views and posts to this thread there is a definite interest in this topic. If this board and its posters don't expose the charlatans who will? Too many have been the victims of dishonest scholarship and we can help prevent this worriment by posting truthful opinions and facts based on actual scholarship and experiences. Veterans and combat vets present knowledge unknown by civilians and must present their stories.
Dan your post was pure gold for me and I suspect many others: "When it "Hits the fan" or as our friend Ian would say 'It becomes a sticky situation" and yes it becomes survival mode, soldiers fight for each other, that is their best chance of survival. However an Officer does not have that luxury of his own survival. He is duty bound and responsible for the lives of his men, and must make the best decision available to him to save as many as he can. Unfortunately to often at the cost of his own life."
Nothing like "having been there and done that" vet to express Reno's situation and feelings! Regards Dave
PS Uncle Ernie said to tell y'all Semper Fi but reminded me to remember I could use the phrase to pass along a message but not for my use. Damn Marines!
|
|
|
Post by yanmacca on Mar 1, 2017 20:19:39 GMT
Dan, we also say "it was a bit of a rum do!" and I have heard that if one of the men got hit, they would say "cor blimey, he has copped a packet"
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Mar 1, 2017 20:41:31 GMT
The person you seek to hoist upon his own petard Dave, uses control, on that board, the way he uses control in his other activities.
Therefore it is not a matter of just changing his mind or altering an opinion or two. That cannot be done, as long as his personality remains as it is.
Personally, I would love to put him in a situation where he is humiliated to such an extent he would never show his face in public again and hide behind the spare matrass in his mommy's basement until he is called to account by a much higher authority.
That is not going to happen. Him changing is not going to happen. The only thing that will happen is that he will get up close and personal with that higher authority.
Until that day comes, it pays no dividends to give him or that board one fraction of a second of your conscience thoughts.
|
|
dave
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,679
|
Post by dave on Mar 1, 2017 22:36:11 GMT
QC I was not referring to changing the little Gnome of the Rotten Apple but rather applying the truth to his falsehoods. If we as a group of responsible individuals do not counter his trite with actual facts and data we allow him to win.
We as a separate group discuss and present to all readers the sources for studying this famous American event. Actual scholarship is a dying art in today's internet world but the truth must be presented. If not us who? The Malevolent Musketeer? I am favor providing light so the darkness can no longer exist. Is that so wrong?
Compare the contributiors of his board compared to this one. We far outpace them in quanity and quality and others will catch on to this quickly and read these posts seeking the truth. If this were not true all your efforts would be for naught. Regards Dave
|
|
|
Post by Beth on Mar 1, 2017 22:43:41 GMT
QC I was not referring to changing the little Gnome of the Rotten Apple but rather applying the truth to his falsehoods. If we as a group of responsible individuals do not counter his trite with actual facts and data we allow him to win. We as a separate group discuss and present to all readers the sources for studying this famous American event. Actual scholarship is a dying art in today's internet world but the truth must be presented. If not us who? The Malevolent Musketeer? I am favor providing light so the darkness can no longer exist. Is that so wrong? Compare the contributiors of his board compared to this one. We far outpace them in quanity and quality and others will catch on to this quickly and read these posts seeking the truth. If this were not true all your efforts would be for naught. Regards Dave His way of dealing with people who want to clear up the truth is to ban them Dave.
|
|