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Post by quincannon on Oct 1, 2016 18:45:16 GMT
Thank you Elizabeth Bond.
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Post by yanmacca on Oct 1, 2016 18:50:23 GMT
Two tea bags in a warmed pot filled with boiling water and left to brew for at least three minuets, put your milk in the cup first then pour, if you fancy a spoon or two of sugar then be my guest, then breakout the MacVities Chocolate Digestives, fantastic!
Iced tea doesn't bare thinking about, but funny enough cold coffee poured over ice cream does, strange old world isn't it.
Sorry for my interjection.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Oct 1, 2016 19:07:21 GMT
A couple of guesses here.
2nd Brigade of the 2nd Armored Division has carried the name since 1985.
3rd Brigade Combat Team, 1st Infantry Division, from WWI through early 2000's
2nd Brigade of the 3rd Armor Division
A number of active Duty Units and National Guard units have claimed it from time to time
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Post by quincannon on Oct 1, 2016 20:13:01 GMT
All true Tom, and there are a few more including a brigade of the 4th Infantry Division right down the street that use Iron Brigade as their moniker.
What I am looking for though is the symbolism, a tangible sign, that connects the area the original Iron Brigade was raised in, although not the Iron Brigade itself, with a modern currently active unit in the U S Army. I will tell you that when you either discover it, or it is identified for you, you will be kicking yourself for not thinking of it. By now I am sure Ian knows.
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Post by yanmacca on Oct 1, 2016 21:14:48 GMT
I am keeping schtum, but this morning I had a dig around and there is quite a few Brigades in the US army with some relation to the name Iron Brigade.
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dave
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,679
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Post by dave on Oct 1, 2016 21:35:11 GMT
QC I missed this thread so please accept my apologies for being late to answer your questions
1) The demise of the Iron Brigade: After Gettysburg and its devastating loses the Iron Brigade was never itself again. The brigade suffered a loss of 64%. Entered combat on July 1, 1863 with 1,883 in the ranks on July 4, 1863 only 671 were not casualties.
2) Why us the term War instead of Civil War? Personal preference as the conflict between the Confederacy and the Union was anything but Civil and I realize the conflict is over and fortunately the United States won. I have never cared what term people have used but for me it is the War.
3) I did not know what unit was a descendant of the Iron Brigade.
I hope I answered all your questions but if I missed one just ask and I'll promise to pay better attention. Regards Dave
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dave
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,679
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Post by dave on Oct 1, 2016 22:22:23 GMT
Yan Why on God's green earth would you poor cold coffee on ice cream? The Brits are all confused with drinking hot tea with milk and eating ice cream with cold coffee.
Coffee is to be taken black and pipping hot while tea is iced and sweet. It really is so simple and by the by biscuits are baked and served hot with sausage gravy and a couple of eggs over easy and a rasher and HOT COFFEE and there you have a fine breakfast. Regards Dave
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Oct 1, 2016 22:22:33 GMT
Just don't tell me the 57th!
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Post by quincannon on Oct 1, 2016 22:38:21 GMT
Gosh, I thought the answer would be so easy, but I think my question was misunderstood.
It was not a question of decent. The unit in question is not descended from anyone but itself.
It was a question of using a symbol from the civil war, by a unit in the Army of today. The connection was the area the Iron Brigade was raised in Wisconsin, connecting the area to the Civil War symbol used during that war by another Wisconsin unit raised in the exact same area, and a modern Army unit that spent the vast majority of its first twenty four years in Wisconsin.
This unit was first raised as I said in the late summer of 1918 as part of the National (draftee) Army. It was only active a few months and was demobilized shortly after the Armistice. Later (early 1920's) the unit was allocated to the Organized Reserve Corps (today's USAR) and activated in Wisconsin. Not having before had an authorized shoulder sleeve insignia, they adopted a symbol from Wisconsin's military history, namely an image of the mascot of the 8th Wisconsin Volunteer Infantry. The unit was called into active Federal Service in August 1942, and later incorporated into the Regular Army establishment, where it remains today. The name of the mascot was Old Abe, the mascot was an American Bald Eagle, and the unit is now the 101st Airborne Division (Air Assault). The Screaming Eagle patch is according to the Institute of Heraldry the most recognized U S Army symbol world wide.
The reason I thought this would be so easy for you Dave is that the War Eagle, Old Abe flew over the regiment in battle at Vicksburg (other places too). There is a painting of the 8th Wisconsin in battle with Abe high above screaming, as if cheering the 8th's soldiers as they attacked.
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dave
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,679
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Post by dave on Oct 2, 2016 0:00:13 GMT
QC I really did not think the question through and missed the obvious connection but remember that in Vicksburg July 4th was not celebrated till 1945 and it was not a city holiday till 2013. So as you can see I did the 8th Wisconsin is not popular down this way.
Do you believe the Iron Brigade was an effective Infantry unit after Gettysburg? They were bleed out and even though additional men were added they did not match the quality of the 1861 volunteers. The 24th Michigan was sworn in in 1862 and were also volunteers. Like so many other units both Confederate and Federal they were just used up. During the War, the effective officers were lost as were many of the enlisted leaders.
The failure of the army commanders to change tactics after the introduction of the Mine ball and rifled cannons lead to unprecedented slaughter. Napoleonic warfare could no longer be conducted with the advent of new weapons and too many old fogies were in command. Regards Dave
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Post by quincannon on Oct 2, 2016 0:52:25 GMT
As I come to think of it that depiction of the 8th Wisconsin, I believe, is part of the Cyclorama in Atlanta, Grant Park I believe the place is, showing of course that the people of Georgia are either far more forgiving, or at least more forgetful than them-thar hillbillies you live with down in Ole Missipp.
Who won the ball game?
Don't know if any of you guys get Cocerto on your public radio or classical stations. It is a bi-lingual program, where they start off in Spanish and end up in English. Drives me crazy, not because it is in English and Spanish but because I am beginning to understand all of what the guy is saying, and I don't speak Spanish
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Post by Beth on Oct 2, 2016 1:40:46 GMT
I'm going to use comment as a segue on topic. Someone mentioned about the difficulty Custer may have had communicating with his scouts yet from some of the things I have read he was fairly fluent in at least sign. Kid 2 is taking ASL as her language requirement for graduation and is constantly showing me sign language jokes and especially puns. Is there anyone today who still speaks the NA sign language?
Did Custer just not use his scouts efficiently, just elect to override their information or possibly a combination of both? How big of a contribution factor would it have been to his mission failure (defeat).
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2016 2:38:27 GMT
Did Custer just not use his scouts efficiently, just elect to override their information or possibly a combination of both? Custer used his scouts, for the most part, only to find their way to the Indian village. Not much else. LT Godfrey was perplexed by the “numerous stands of brush, whose crowns had been joined to form a kind of overhead framework.” At first, the troops thought it was to protect the Indians’ dogs, but it was later learned—and Wooden Leg also told Marquis—these were wickiups housing young, single warriors who had joined the main camp. Godfrey wrote they “passed a great many camping places, all appearing to be of the same strength.” Then, in one of the more telling admissions of error, he remarked, “One would naturally suppose these were the successive camping-places of the same village, when in fact they were the continuous camps of several bands. The fact that they appeared to be of nearly the same age, that is, having been made at the same time, did not impress us then.” And the scouts didn't tell them these things? Or is it that they just chose to ignore them? Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by Beth on Oct 2, 2016 4:23:14 GMT
I expect they never asked, at least not until long after the battle when someone finally said at some reunion "Hey do you remember those weird dog houses? I don't remember seeing THAT many dogs. What do you suppose they really were?" They had what was considered a logical explanation for what they where seeing that worked until they had a reason to seek a different answer. I bet they really wished they had the answer before the 25th though. I can't remember-I know about the two teepees of course but were any wikiups noted before the battle, especially perhaps at the site of the Sundance? I wonder if they were built in previous encampments, if they would just take the material with them or expect to find the building material at the next stop. Also didn't the bulk of the young single warriors join towards the end of the village's movement? BTW I was exploring to see if a Sundance was related to the solstice and found this wiki entry. Does pikachu have any other meaning beyond Pokémon that I am not aware of?
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Post by yanmacca on Oct 2, 2016 9:11:00 GMT
Custer used his scouts, for the most part, only to find their way to the Indian village. Not much else. That's what I was eluding to in my post on the previous page (Posts: 1,611), he was fixed on trying to locate the main trail and using it to reach his goal. I suppose the question of how many Indians they would find in the main village would be old news, I think they expected to be out numbered and heavily at that. So the size of the village and its volume of inhabitants would be spoken about constantly by all from scouts to officers and EMs. Yan.
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