Custer's route

[yanmacca]

Well road builders are not stupid and they construct their highways on the best ground possible to allow for level ground utilizing the straight and direct route, so when these architects plan a new road they take in the availability of natural highways and that's why Custer's route could have follow the new road is now.

[azranger]

Ian

That map that was used does not look the same terrain features that I see. SSR does not extend to Reno and the best that I can tell is that map has the travel down Cedar Coulee. The line for the trail goes right through the troop placement on Reno Hill.

I think the end of where you can ride on SRR dumps you into Cedar Coulee. SRR is adjacent Cedar Coulee.  You have ride on top which makes you visible for miles. If we assume there are only Indians in the valley  than it would be less likely to be observed.

One year when we on top SRR at the only place you can see into the valley Chip pointed out why it could not have been the high that was observed from the valley. I should see in him in about a week.

My concern is that where could Martin look back and see Custer from SSR?

On the map Ian posted the line remains straight which puts you in Cedar Coulee. It does not turn east to climb up on SSR.

All three routes start in Cedar Coulee or they adjacent Cedar Coulee.

None of the areas where Custer crossed were within carbine range of the Big Village. So if Custer went to NC or Luce and we are reasonably sure some troopers were there than it still fits Godfrey's account.

Wherever Martin was at he could see Reno in the valley. He claimed to tell Boston that Custer was close by and just out of sight.

Thompson loses sight of Custer because of the grade just south of Reno Hill. If 5 companies are on SRR they should be visible when Thompson tops out.  He claims he took the wrong trail and it led toward the village.

The quickest way to drop out of sight would be to start down Cedar Coulee.

Martin claims he cut across country and went back to the same viewing place that he was at with Custer.

In the end the three routes are all close to Cedar Coulee when the meet MTC or Reno Creek as noted on the map Ian posted.

If Donahue publishes the map he discovered drawn by a scout that would be a good piece of evidence. I think it is probably out there but we have never paid attention to it.

Regards

Steve

[mac]

Interesting Steve! Thanks. I will try to find time for a map session tonight. I do agree that Cedar Coulee is a tempting route. What about east of SSR?
Cheers

[deadwoodgultch]

My opinion, better.

[yanmacca]

Steve you have ridden the area, so what do you think of this route to reach the highway from the bluffs, it looks like a natural pathway and has what looks like a track laid on it.

As you say MTC in a very long coulee so if they didn't go this route then they had to enter it somewhere along their route.

[yanmacca]

Another thing that the image shows is how the drainage channels flow from right to left, so any move over this terrain would make you ride against the grain of the land, would this tire out your horses?

[mac]

Thanks Ian it is an interesting route (more below).
I remember looking at Cedar Coulee and thinking exactly as AZ has said that the pathway would be along the margin as his photo shows. My problem is the low ground aspect.
As to Martini; he changes his story and I think perhaps he did not ever really have much idea where Custer went. That is until after he was "told".
I notice that from 3411 SSR is right there and a route "behind" it looks attractive to me.
I have read accounts that say women had 'escaped" up MTC and returned because they saw "Custer" higher up there. I am not sure yet what this says about Ian's route.
Tom you are a man of few words on this. Got a few more? 
Cheers

[Beth]

Today someone posted a picture of 3411 from the valley floor on the facebook LBHA page. I was surprised at how prominent the ridge running behind it was (I am assuming it is SSR) If any of Custer's troops traveled along that route they would have been very visible from the valley floor as well as if Martin traveled back on that ridge he should have been able to see what was going on in at least part of the valley. It makes me wonder if Custer really went exactly to 3411 or if he just paused to watch from SSR

[yanmacca]

What you do get from this map is the huge size of MTC and how it dominates the landscape;

[azranger]

I think there are many fine routes but only one is correct. The best that I can do is attempt to put together the accounts and match them up with potential routes. I still don't have an opinion on which route is "the route".

Thompson drops out and walks to the river. He alleges to see Custer on a leader's recon. Reno is advancing toward Weir and picks up Thompson. So for me that places the separation point for Thompson close to and south of Reno Creek.

Martin marks his location on Camp's map. So we need to put that on whatever map we are working with.

Martin states they dropped down a ravine after making the observation with Custer. So did they drop down Cedar Coulee or go up on top of SSR.

There is part of SSR that is visible from the valley. Two years ago we walked on top to that location with Donahue.

We were also at the same location horseback and Hopefully in the next few days I will get to talk to Chip while on my metal detecting adventure.

We have Indian locations and cavalry locations at Nye Cartwright, Blummer, and Luce. Also Weibert has additional locations including what is believed to be Wolf Tooth along highway 212.

So I think we can place those on the map also. Timing of when they were there should help to determine the route. Was the NC engagement on the way north or was it after returning.

Martin states he was within 600 yards of Ford B when he turned back.

So I think we should put these things on the map without rejecting any of them and see what happens.

I read the low country comments but I haven't got that fixed in my mind to what that means. All of the drainages end in the low country of MTC.

Since Camp was on site with Thompson, Kanipe, and Curley his map locations should be added.

I think there is a chance that the map Donahue is looking at can be found in Curtis.

There is an old two track road that comes in the back way to Reno-Benteen. We ride it to get from the 7th Ranch on Reno Creek Road to the battlefield.  It's to bad the current entrance did not come in from that direction since it would be closer to the actual movements of the battle.

Well I am on my way to patrol lake Powell today and tomorrow and then I leave on Sunday toward Buffalo Wyoming. I am attending a metal detector class and one of the instructors is Doug Scott. I want to get up to the battlefield and see some friends there also.

Regards

Steve

[azranger]

Sept 2, 2016 9:10:08 GMT yanmacca said:

What you do get from this map is the huge size of MTC and how it dominates the landscape;

I think that Medicine Tail Coulee gives me a mental image that I don't see on the ground. Cedar Coulee seems appropriate but it drains into MTC.  At least one map called MTC Reno Creek and the current Reno Creek was labeled Benteen Creek.

I think Creek seems more appropriate to me with many Coulees draining into it. I don't think it should be changed though because the common use of MTC  can be identified on a current map.

That's my same comment with Reno Creek as compared to calling it Ash Creek. There is an Ash Creek that drains into the Rosebud and if you follow it up and cross it is also lined up with Reno Creek.

So you could ride up Ash Creek on the east a divide and ride down Ash Creek on west of a divide if Reno Creek is called Ash Creek.

Regards

Steve

[yanmacca]

Steve when you say to and south of Reno creek, can you be a bit more specific?

[dave]

Steve
If you run into or speak with Will Hutchison please tell him how I enjoy his historical fiction and that his Crimean Memories about the artefacts from that war is beautiful! Great work.

Have a safe trip and time and enjoy your "working vacation" and be sure to take lots of notes to share your findings with us.
Regards
Dave

[quincannon]

Looking forward to seeing that annotated map.

Beth: How far away (west) of the bluffs was that picture taken from, and is it anywhere near known troop locations in the valley?

[Beth]

Sept 2, 2016 16:44:18 GMT quincannon said:

Looking forward to seeing that annotated map.

Beth: How far away (west) of the bluffs was that picture taken from, and is it anywhere near known troop locations in the valley?

That I don't know. It was someone's vacation pictures so this is a pure guess on my part from the highway or Gerryowen?  It was his picture of 3411 which was clearly in the center of the shot but behind was a ridge that from the location of the shot was clearly visible.  It was also long enough to hold a number of horses.