The use of lever actioned rifles by the US Army.

[yanmacca]

I am always amazed at the number of westerns that have cavalry troopers equipped with leaver action rifles, as you know the Spencer (56-56) was issued in limited numbers to Union cavalry formations during the ACW, and this had to be personally pushed through by Lincoln, as muzzle loaders were the order of the day.

After the war the Spencer was withdrawn from use and gradually replaced by trapdoor rifles, so every time I saw a western film with cavalry using either Henrys or Winchesters I thought that the researchers had not done their homework.

But I am wrong, even though the Henry was not adopted by the US Army, it was still used by some Militia formations, who purchased them for themselves. Apparently the Winchester was issued in small numbers to equip men during the Pan-Am war, this was mainly down to these units being at the bottom of the pile to receive the new Krag’s. So it was either the Winchester or the trapdoor Springfield.

In WW2 the US Army again issued Winchesters and these were used to arm guards at installations in the states.

So next time I see a western and the Cavalry are armed with lever actioned weapons, I will think again because in 1863 the US ordnance department purchased 1.731 Henry repeaters so some must have been issued to at one time or other to the men in the field.

Yan.

[quincannon]

At the grave risk of once again bursting balloons, the  lever action weapon seen on the silver screen is gross inaccuracy in mass. An individual weapon here or there in possession of either soldier are scout is an outlier.

I have never heard of a Winchester being used by any military unit, Regular, Volunteer, or activated Organized Militia during the Span-Am War. I may very well have missed something though, so no gospel like pronouncement will come from me on the subject.

I have also never heard of the use of Winchesters to arm anyone in the military in WWII. Again no gospel like announcement, for it very well may have slipped by me.

The were very little known organized bodies of militia that existed during WWII raised by the States themselves, that were used to guard state facilities during WWII. These as far as I can determine were issued surplus 1903A3's. There may well have been civilian guards here and there, not under government sponsorship that carried the Winchester, which was and still is a popular, highly valued weapon.

In the militia of the 19th Century it was the States themselves that were the primary supply source of weaponry. Most chose to equip with surplus to regular requirements U S Army issue weapons. That was not universal. Some states chose to go their own way.

Now we are getting into an area where I do have some expertise. The Dick Act passed by congress in the early years of the 20th Century (1904 as I recall), and based on the readiness for war debacle that was the Span-Am War dictated that the Regular Army and the National Guard {the new but still ancient name for the Organized Militia that dates to the 107th Infantry (7th New York, The National Guard) a name given them by, and derived from Lafayette's Guarde National}would be organized and equipped in the same uniform manner, and that the organization would be based upon U S Army tables of organization that would be administered through the Militia (now National Guard) Bureau. That has since grown over time to where the Joint Force (Army and Air) National Guard now have a seat on the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and the Chief of the National Guard Bureau is a coequal with the other Chief of Staff, Commandant, and Chief of Naval Operations, and the Dick Act was the start of it all.

Two things to note

The 71st New York (The American Guard) an activated Organized Militia unit fought the Santiago de Cuba Campaign with the Springfield single shot breech loading rifle.

The State Militia in a cadre form exists in most if not all states. It is a planning body devoted to civil defense and the wartime replacement of a fully activated National Guard

[yanmacca]

Apparently two security groups were issued with Winchesters and one of these was stationed in the Philippines and the other Alaska, but I cannot find anything else of these weapons.

Didn’t the Buffalo Soldiers use lever action rifles?

Have a look at this my maybe some of the info came from this;

Winchester chambered their rifle in .30-40 Krag, then the standard US Army cartridge. The US Army wound up buying some 10,000 of these just in time for war with Spain over Cuba. Speaking of which Teddy Roosevelt, an outdoorsman and shooter who also dabbled in politics, liked the M1895 so much that he acquired 100 commercially made Krag caliber Winnies in 1898. This was enough to equip each of the officers of his famed Rough Riders with one. Officially known as the 1st US Volunteer Cavalry, this group of cowboys and adventurers rode to glory with Colonel Roosevelt at San Juan Hill in the Spanish-American War armed with these unlikely guns.

[quincannon]

Unless you categorize rode to glory as being riding on shoe leather they rode nowhere.

I hate this I saw it on the internet, read something someone said, puff up a resume with words like rode to glory bull shit. What really happened in those times is the stuff of excitement and adventure for ten lifetimes without embellishment crap. 

There are probably not ten people in all of Christendom that are or ever have been qualified to write on the history of the U S Army. I know or know of most of them, one of which is not me. If you don't for instance read and heed the words of John Wilson, Roma Danish, Mary Lee Stubbs, Janice McKenney, Stanley Russell O'Conner, Charles McDonald, my good friend and former associate Doctor Robert K. "Dog Breath" Wright, and the best and most unrestrained of all LTC (Ret) John C. Andrews USA, a friend, companion in arms, and all round good guy, then what you see written in print concerning any aspect of the U S Army is not worth a bucket of spit, until it has been verified by at least ten sources, and that includes anything by me.

 

What Teddy did with his money is not my concern. He may well have done just that. The fact remains that the 1st U S Volunteer Cavalry was equipped with the standard U S Army weapon of the day, the Krag.

It would be much more accurate to say that Theodore Roosevelt, a politician first and foremost who one owned a ranch in the Dakotas, was at home in the outdoors, was familiar with weapons of all types, legislator, peace officer, police commissioner, governor, Assistant Secretary of the Navy, starter of wars in that regard, vice president, and then President of the United States for nearly two full terms, was the LTC of the 1st U. S. Volunteer Cavalry breveted to command that organization, upon the reassignment of the regimental commander COL (permanent Regular Army CPT) Leonard Wood, was a soldier for the sum total of less than six months, long enough though to merit the award of the Medal of Honor (awarded 100 years too late) for conspicuous valor and outstanding leadership qualities on Kettle Hill (they can't even get the name of the hill right - San Juan Heights and Kettle Hill are the two in question), 

In addition the assault and seizure of San Juan Heights complex was a total U S Army operation including both Infantry and dismounted cavalry, the most significant unit of which was Wheeler's 1st Cavalry Division under the temporary command of COL, brevet BG Leonard Wood.

The Buffalo Soldiers, buy that meaning the 9th and 10th Regiments of U. S, Cavalry and the 24th and 25th Regiments of U.S. Infantry,  no, not to my knowledge. Their equipment mirrored what was issued to the rest of the U. S. Army consistent with branch and table of organization at the time. If anything those regiments being Black, and this being the latter half of the 19th Century would be on the low end of the totem pole for the issue of anything ranging from shoe strings to saddle leather. Everyone in the U. S. Army made do, the Black regiments made make do an art form. Why would anyone think they would get priority of modern issue of anything much less weaponry.

[deadwoodgultch]

Most of the levers used in the westerns were Model 94's until the 1970's, the outlier was Wayne, he generally used a Model 92. In the 1970's more quality reproductions became available.

[quincannon]

Wayne also used a 1873 model Colt Revolver in a period piece dated prior to 1845, when the proper weapon would be, and it is so stated in the novel the movie was based on a Paterson Colt.

Of course that same movie mentioned Fort Sill, and there are two things to note about that. Sill had not yet entered the Army, much less being dead, and having his friend Sheridan name an Army post after him, and Fort Sill was not established until after the Civil War. That if memory serves was long after the Texas Republic had ceased to exist and the State of Texas admitted to the Union.

Now Ian, do you see why I do not take these things movies and adventure novels that masquerade as factual history all that seriously?

Those people I mentioned, all except Andrews, have their work subjected to rigorous peer review, before they are published. That is why it takes their work so long to see the light of day. It is though completely accurate in faithful adherence to their charter of providing, not puff blow your own horn drivel about the Army, but factual material upon which current and future doctrine and training can be based upon. The material they produce is dry as a ten day old discarded paper towel, it is a literary root canal to read, but it is also the best and most accurate there is. Andrews is a horse of a different color. He has forgotten more about airborne operations than anyone will ever know. A limited expertise to be sure, but the absolute best in the business.

John Wayne nor Hollywood in general suffer not the rigors of a Center of Military History peer review board, nor do the writers of agenda driven drivel. Some are better that others but there is always the underlying agenda of self gratification and importance.

[yanmacca]

That Rough Rider’s piece was written by an American about a piece of American history, which is not my sphere and also not my countries history.

I know that the US Army went from the Springfield M73 to the Krag and then the Springfield M03 and later the Garand, any lever operated rifles would not be classed as standard issue, but that doesn’t mean that they never had any in stock and in the case Winchester M95 brought out to equip reserve units in time of dire need.

Every army of every nation has weapons which are not standard issue, like the Winchester 1200 shot gun used by the US Marines in Vietnam or the 80.000 M12 trench guns (pump iron shot guns) which were purchased by the US Army, Navy and Airforce.

That’s why I mentioned the 1.731 Henry's bought by the US military in 1863, they were not standard issue but they had them in their armoury.

[deadwoodgultch]

The Henry would, in fact, seem to shoot all day, however it had no wooden forearm and the shooters could barely hold them when firing continuously. Elsewhere on the board I asked if the Model 73 should have been the cavalry weapon, I think it should have been as it and the Model 73 Colt were both chambered for the .44-40.

Ian,

I feel like a geek as I know some of this stuff. The clown on the other board thinks ballistics, range of fire, sight radius, and being familiar with your weapon mean nothing. My knowledge of these things pale in comparison with military armors, competitive shooters, and snipers.

Charlie Reynolds and a number of the civilian employees carried the Model 73 and 66.

Ian our and your Spec. Ops. folks carry a number of non inventoried weapons.

If I am not mistaking Chuck owns a rifle that has made numerous kills at 600+ yards in the hands of a trained marksman. Bullet size for that rifle range from 120 grains wt. to 220 grains wt. . So that particular "liberal" has one of the most utilitarian rifles ever produced.

Regards,
Tom

[quincannon]

Ian: I have spent a lot of time discussing documentation of organization on these boards.

That said you show me the documented TO&E or any sort of organizational document  that authorizes the carry of any weapon by the U S Army by an organization during the period 1866 to 1953 other than the ones mentioned as being standard the M73, Krag, 03, and M-1. In the U S Army you don't do squat without the document.

Now did individuals from time to time carry a weapon that was non standard, sure and that is well documented, Custer, first among them.

Do Special Forces as Tom says carry weapons that meet their peculiar requirements without documentation. Again true.

Again show me the documentation where I am wrong.

The one thing this country had plenty of from 1917 onward were military grade long arms. We did not need to go to the local hardware to get an obsolete non military weapon to fulfill our military needs.

You are not mistaken Tom

Ian believe none of what you hear or read, and only half of what you see, until what you read or see is verified by ten independent sources. It is the curse of the age we live in just as mush as heroic death and romantic hogwash was lionized in the era we delve into mostly here. 

[colt45]

Jul 19, 2016 20:11:16 GMT quincannon said:

Ian: I have spent a lot of time discussing documentation of organization on these boards.

That said you show me the documented TO&E or any sort of organizational document  that authorizes the carry of any weapon by the U S Army by an organization during the period 1866 to 1953 other than the ones mentioned as being standard the M73, Krag, 03, and M-1. In the U S Army you don't do squat without the document.

Now did individuals from time to time carry a weapon that was non standard, sure and that is well documented, Custer, first among them.

Do Special Forces as Tom says carry weapons that meet their peculiar requirements without documentation. Again true.

Again show me the documentation where I am wrong.

The one thing this country had plenty of from 1917 onward were military grade long arms. We did not need to go to the local hardware to get an obsolete non military weapon to fulfill our military needs.

You are not mistaken Tom

Ian believe none of what you hear or read, and only half of what you see, until what you read or see is verified by ten independent sources. It is the curse of the age we live in just as mush as heroic death and romantic hogwash was lionized in the era we delve into mostly here. 

When inspection time rolled around, you had better only have on hand that which the TO&E for your unit called for, no more, no less.  Now, once the inspection was over, all bets were off.  When I was a platoon leader, my platoon conexes had all kinds of "extra" and unauthorized parts and tools.  All necessary in order to keep a bunch of tanks running.  When it was motor pool inspection time, all the non-TO&E stuff was removed and generally stored in the trunks of cars until the inspection was over.

When I was the supply officer, the problem was compounded as there were all sorts of non-TO&E things around the battalion, again all useful.  When inspection time rolled around, a deuce and a half got loaded with everything that would cause a problem and it was sent driving around the fort until the inspection was over.  Then it came back and all the stuff unloaded and put back into use.

Do you think the top brass involved in the inspections knew this sort of thing went on?  Of course they did.  It was a case of "if I don't know about it and can't see it, I can't flunk you on the inspection".

Chuck is right that you can't do squat in the Army without a document and a unit's TO&E is kind of like the bible, but alas, we were all sinners and we had many violations of TO&E authorizations, and they occurred almost daily.  That was how we got the job done and kept the tanks working.

[quincannon]

Ian: I fully realize how difficult it can be to obtain reliable data on the U S Army. I suspect Colt and others do as well.

That said, you only have the documents to go on. Are there places where the odd weapon is used? Certainly there are, and the need and variation is generally a matter, of place, situation, and specific short term , and sometimes long term requirements. This is generally handled by a specifically designed and allocated TDA (Table of Distribution and Allowances, and/or a personnel augmentation to the MTO&E.

Case in point. I worked on the activation or conversion of five light divisions. Having an ALO1 priority of fill on all of them the MTO&E's were nearly identical. It did not matter if they were Regular Army, National Guard, or the one Army Reserve brigade we had in the mix for all five.

What was different is the TDA allocated to those five divisions. To whit, and what follows are not complete only highlights to illustrate my meaning.

6th Infantry Division: Allotted ski and other cold weather clothing and equipment to both Regular Brigades, and the AR Brigade stationed in Minnesota.

7th Infantry Division: Stored but ready equipment stocks for operations in , well let's say places south of the Rio Grande.

10th Mountain Division: Cold weather, ski, and snow mobility equipment for one Regular Brigade and one National Guard Brigade. The other brigade was stationed at Fort Benning, GA and received no special TDA allowances or augmentation.

25th Infantry Division: Extra allotments in the TDA for sun screen, and no I am not kidding one damned bit.

29th Infantry Division: No extra TDA for Federal mission, but augmented TDA for state missions like riot shot guns, converted flamethrowers for riot control agent dispersion. MTO&E augmentation for battalion personnel function in the HHC of each battalion, and a company mess team for every company. That same MTO&E augmentation document reduced the number of people that were concerned with those same two functions in other elements of the division. Example: All of the mess teams for a brigade are found in the brigade headquarters company. Works just fine if your whole brigade is stationed together at Fort Swampy, where you operate a brigade level mess hall. Does not work so good for the one company stationed at the armory in Chestertown, Maryland that is conducting local training in a state park on the Eastern Shore of Maryland 80 or more miles away from its brigade headquarters.

Now the moral of the story is that you cannot pick up a MTO&E/TDA for the 1st Battalion 87th Infantry, 10th Mountain Division at Fort Drum, New York, see ski equipment and snow mobility vehicles and then expect to find those same items in the MTO&E/TDA for the 1st Battalion, 27th Infantry, 25th Infantry Division at Schofield Barracks, Hawaii.

Equally you cannot expect to see pump shotguns in the 6th Marine Regiment in North Carolina, just because they are a "specific task requirement issue" for the 9th Marine Regiment in Vietnam.

Trying to keep up with all this is impossible. It is made doubly so by people who see what they see, without the type of explanation I have tried to provide and assume that one size fit all. In the U S Army the one size fits all is the TO&E, the MTO&E is the shoe size stretcher, that helps the shoe fit your feet. The TDA augmentation makes them sandals.

Go with what the book says they have, ignore the outliers, and you will be well served in the long run.

COLT - I AM DOUBLY SHOCKED AND THIS FOR THE SECOND TIME that you admit to fiddle farting with the PLL. What in the name of Montgomery Miegs the Elder is the world coming to. Shame I say, Shame and derision on your house forever or until Friday night whichever comes first.

[quincannon]

Ian: I remembered I did not respond or address this earlier.

You said it was obtained from an American author.

"Officially known as the 1st U.S. Volunteer Cavalry this group of Cowboys and adventurers rode to glory with Colonel Roosevelt at San Juan Hill in the Spanish American War armed with these unlikely guns"

It is the work of a complete nitwit that gives a completely false picture of the event

"Officially known as the 1st U.S. Volunteer Cavalry" - correct in all respects, in fact the name Rough Riders was applied after the fact.

"this group of adventures and cowboys" Bushwa to the 10th power. While there were some cowboys, and probably a few in it for the adventure, one squadron was composed of members of the New Mexico National Guard (a unit still in existence), policemen, Yale, Harvard, Princeton and other Ivy League Colleges, students and graduates, policemen, firemen, the son of a Secretary of State(KIA), Wall Street Bankers, storekeepers, barbers, handymen, and others from nearly all walks of life including a county sheriff (KIA), and at least two Regular Army officers in volunteer service Allen Capron Jr.(KIA), and a medical doctor turned cavalryman Leonard Wood MOH.

" rode to glory with Colonel Roosevelt" Horse (pardon the pun) hockey. The only person that had a goddamned horse was Teddy Roosevelt, Little Texas, and Roosevelt got barely past the line of departure before, he dismounted and sent his horse to the rear. The rest of the regiment that was present (one squadron did not go to Cuba) went up that hill on foot, then on their bellies, then rose up for a final assault. The author, the aforementioned nitwit, gives the impression of a glorious mounted cavalry charge doesn't he. All of the horses save a very few, Roosevelt's and Wood's among them, were back in Tampa Florida, a few hundred miles away.

"at San Juan Hill" The 1st USVC assaulted Kettle Hill so named for a large water tank situated on top of it. They later joined the rest of the cavalry division, notably the 3rd, 9th, and 10th Cavalry Regiments, at the very end, just in time to get their picture taken at the blockhouse on San Juan Heights, the one you see in the background of the picture you posted.

I am not even going to address the weapons thing, because if you cannot see this person that wrote this does not know his ass from a hole in the ground by now, nothing else I say will make any difference

One thing you should note. The name Rough Rider owes more to Buffalo Bill's Wild West Show, and the post war hype that surrounded the end of the Span-Am War, where our mighty, incompetent, ill equipped, ill fed, ill ministered to medically Army, beat the snot out of a tenth rate ex-world power with a fifth rate navy, and an army that could not beat the girl scouts. It was a forerunner of the same type event where we celebrated ourselves into invincibility in 1991.

American nitwits, and we have plenty of them are still nitwits, Believe none of what you hear and read and only half of what you see, and you will never go far wrong.

[yanmacca]

When the US Army went to Cuba, some formations were issued with Springfield M1892 (License built Krag-Jorgenson) but these were soon found wanting against the M1893 Mauser.

In 1892 the US Army held a shoot off to choose a new infantry rifle, over forty weapons were selected for the competition with the Mauser being one of them. Apparently the Krag won the day and was selected. The main difference between the Krag and the Mauser was loading and accuracy, the five round clip system of the Mauser made loading faster, which gave the rifle a higher rate of fire.

After the conflict the US Army decided on replacing the Krag with the Springfield M1903, which was considered a copy of the Mauser, this caused the German company to taking the Americans to court and suing them for patent infringements.

The Americans initially paid the Germans $200.000 split over nine payments. They also faced a battle over the .30-06 round, as the Germans also said that this was a copy of their Spitzer bullet. The argument carried well past WW1 and the Germans won, they not only received an award $300.000, but after damages this rose to $412.520.55.

[deadwoodgultch]

Ian,

Was the Spitzer case predicated on the 8x57(.32cal.) or 7x57(.28cal.) or both, with the .30-06 was a .30cal.?

Regards,
Tom

[yanmacca]

Tom, some sources say that the .30-40 Krag had more in common with the .303. The 7x57 Spitzchoss (Spitzer) was more lethal when used with the faster loading Mauser. The 8x57SJ was also a Spitzer round (the S stands for Spitzer.

The Germans used the 7.92x57 compared to the Springfield 7.62x63, both were manufactured around the same time 7.92mm Mauser [1905], Springfield 30.06 [1906].