azranger
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Post by azranger on May 25, 2021 17:20:43 GMT
The artifacts at Ford D appear in the 2003, 17th Annual Symposium Custer Battlefield Historical & Museum Association.
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azranger
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Post by azranger on May 25, 2021 17:28:24 GMT
Where would Kellogg's original marker have been in relationship to the building? I think I recall the locations but time has taken a toll. I sure wish we could all be there. That is a fun side trip and not many people have been there. So if you look at the picture of the foundation you can see the old road. It goes through a fence. At the gate the foundation is west. If you stay on the road to your east is the end of the western fork of BRE. Just as you pass BRE on your left that marker would be along side of the road. It is still quite a distance before you hit the NPS boundary which had the old Cemetery gate.
Regards
Steve
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azranger
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Post by azranger on May 25, 2021 17:32:29 GMT
I know the building means nothing, and is nothing more than a reference point, as there was no structure there in 1876, but the point I was making is the same for other manmade structures which were built post battle, as in many Indian account they mention the stones (cemetery) and the monument (LSH). Interestingly enough, if you look at the JSIT map and see how the soldiers may have used the middle ravine as Crazy Horse Ravine is shown on the map and the soldiers go to the right of it, then you will see a structure just like a house, check it out as the soldiers pass by it going west before veering northish and moving back east! This would make the crossing place on the otherside of the one posted on the google earth map.
Great find Ian. If I had to put that foundation on the map it does look like what JSIT put on his map. I am glad Tom convinced me to go down there years ago. He is sort of an instigator.
Regards
Steve
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azranger
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Post by azranger on May 25, 2021 17:49:37 GMT
Steve, Interesting. When I was taught at the Armor Basic Course how to shoot a pistol, we weren't told to use the sights at all. Before we even touched a pistol, we were told to just put up our shooting hand with the index finger out and the thumb up, just like kids when we were playing. No one ever misses what they point at. After several exercises with that, we then picked up the pistol and treated it like the barrel was our index finger instead. Again, the pointing for a bit. Then we fired. I qualified expert every time I fired regardless of the age of my pistol or its barrel wear. I taught my daughters how to shoot that way and they can hit consistently, though none of them own any weapons. Mike
I teach firearms for the NAU Park Ranger Training Program. One of my students is at the park and I believe there is another there now.
Less than 1 yard keep it in close. At 3 yards muzzle index. At 7 yards front sight. At 15 and 25 target, sight alignment , target and then back to front sight focus. FLECTC wants us to use the current isosceles grip with the off hand thumb along the slide.
We teach to use that thumb to point at your target from 3 yards and beyond. At really close distances you don't want to extend your arm toward your threat. Certainly the Red Dot would be consistent with what you were taught.
Regards
Steve
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Post by yanmacca on May 25, 2021 19:01:44 GMT
I sure wish we could all be there. Yeah Steve, I would spend a month over there if I could, just hitting different locations.I bet me you and Tom would have a ball, but no horse riding or raiding down the little bighorn river on a raft made out of a few old oil drums and planks. I would also like to hit the firing range with you guys, but not shooting Mr and Mrs prarie dog. I would also like to meet all the other people who I has met on these fine boards, Fred and Dan among them.There are a few of you who cant make the LBH, like Dave and Beth, I haven't forgotton you, but I would have to meet you at a diner in your town.Chuck, I would like to meet you in San Antonio, we could lunch then walk the city.
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Post by yanmacca on May 25, 2021 19:42:18 GMT
Where would Kellogg's original marker have been in relationship to the building? I think I recall the locations but time has taken a toll. Beth, I have copied Mike's map and put a blue X over the position of the Kellogg marker. I have cut the map down so to take up less room on the board.
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azranger
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Post by azranger on May 26, 2021 15:19:43 GMT
Where would Kellogg's original marker have been in relationship to the building? I think I recall the locations but time has taken a toll. Beth, I have copied Mike's map and put a blue X over the position of the Kellogg marker. I have cut the map down so to take up less room on the board.
Ian That is not where the marker is in the picture. If you look at the river it forms triangle. At the the top you can see a green drainage extending further. That drainage is Gibbons ford. Follow the direction of that finger and cross the old road at BRE. That is the location of the marker in the Grand Opening of the new entrance road. Gibbons ford is linked to the Kellogg body. I have seen that location that you marked on another map but never a picture of the marker in that location. Regards Steve
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Post by Beth on May 26, 2021 16:25:53 GMT
Thanks to both of you. I now have a clear idea about the marker location. I have always believed that Kelloggs marker was one of the best indications that Custer too was in that area. I just can not see him being far from whatever path Custer traveled.
Has that drainage ever been looked at for artifacts that might have been washed down?
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Post by yanmacca on May 26, 2021 19:05:29 GMT
Hi Steve, so his body was found on a probable route leading from BRE/Cemetery ridge to the flats near the fording point? If this is the case then the Custer and his HQ was in that area.
I got the Kellogg location from the Bonefide map;
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Post by yanmacca on May 26, 2021 19:23:05 GMT
Here is a map view and a google view. Map is first, google view 2nd. On the google view, the dashed yellow line represents another line of effort moving through what I think is the hotel grounds. View AttachmentView AttachmentHi Mike, I don't think the crossing point was around the place you marked on your google map.
I feel that QC has a point when he suggested that the old stage road would be a more likely spot for a crossing and JSIT shows on his map that the place was further east as the direction arrows pass by that old house. I am sure the road bridge was built on the route of this stage road, so I would think that he made for that location to cross.
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Post by quincannon on May 26, 2021 20:12:51 GMT
Two points Ian:
1) There is absolutely nothing that says Kellogg was with Custer, or Custer with Kellogg. That is an assumption, and in this instance, an assumption that has no substance in displayable fact. Kellogg could have been with anyone. Kellogg could have been with no one. Kellogg could have been sitting as a position of advantage, where he could see (and then report on) what was about to unfold. Not scolding you here, but this is a perfect example of "old think" by the "Know It All Brigade", the ones who insist that Tom Custer was an aide to his brother, Benteen dawdled, therefore to blame for everything, including the crucifixion of Christ, Custer's dog's only dined on Premium Milk Bone, and Dandy and Vic's shit did not stink, because they belonged to Custer. So what then is the point? Custer and Kellogg may very well have been joined at the hip, for all we know, but there is probably a better than even chance they were not. In that light we must never leap to the conclusion that where Kellogg was Custer must have been too. That does nothing potentially but lead us down false trails.
2) Actually QC thinks that the Old Stage Road followed the trace of the now service road, that used to be the main north/south highway before Interstate 90 was built. It is only a few meters east of Interstate 90, which makes it closer to the old house foundation. Regardless only a few meters separate them, but the old service road seems more logical to me since the JSIT map was drawn before the Interstate was built.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2021 22:11:26 GMT
Well, they never actually crossed the river so anything is speculation. From the map and the aerial photograph, the only thing I say is those look, to this armored cavalryman, to be places I would cross. People blow bridges. If there is a ford near the bridge, they mine the ford. Sometimes they leave the ford open so they can blow you to pieces when you almost get across.
There are two ways I crossed danger areas. One is I send a fire team, or even a single man, while everything else I can suppresses the far side to get that guy across. The other way, is I rush across with everything at once, hopefully being covered by the rest of my unit (whether it is the rest of the company if I am a platoon leader or the battalion, plus supporting fires, if I am a company commander.) Both may be wrong in a given circumstance and both may be right.
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Post by yanmacca on May 27, 2021 5:32:38 GMT
Morning Mike.
You are correct I think, that they never made it across to the other side, but crossing points like that are the only game in town if you want to attack this village.
Was Custer going to stop and evaluate the situation first, I don't know, but some say that he was sure moving quick to get to MTC, so chances are he was still doing so when he headed along battle ridge.
Chuck, I placed Kellogg with Custer because he was there to write about Custer and the battle, plus I wouldn't like to be isolated around that area mounted on a mule.
I really only thought of this because his body was found in a possible travel corridor and not on some advantage point, but who knows.
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Post by quincannon on May 27, 2021 6:43:05 GMT
Well the body was found near Gibbon's Ford, and it certainly is a travel corridor, but I think those are the only things we really know for certain with the exception of riding a mule, and we don't really know that. What we do know regarding his mount is that he was last seen riding a mule.
As for writing about Custer, he was probably going to do that, possibly a lot of that, but he was also a reporter, whose primary job was to record and write about the campaign and the battle. So with that in mind, I would put money on him being where he could observe, and not get caught up in participation. That brings up where was it best to observe from, and I would think that anywhere along the west face of Cemetery Ridge would be just fine. He was found on that west face of the ridge, but that should not be taken to mean that he was observing (if in fact that was what he was doing) from the place he was found. One could argue that he was riding across the face of that ridge with the intention of heading up Cemetery Ravine to higher ground when he got whacked. In addition there is no earthly reason for Custer (himself) to be anywhere near where Kellogg was found. Commanders need to be where they can see, and exercise command. You can't see crap from where Gibbon discovered Kellogg
If the stupid son of a bitch had any sense he would not have been there in the first place, mounted on a mule or not
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2021 10:55:07 GMT
Ian,
A known ford is not the only game in town. It is a place where you know the enemy is going to defend. Feint there and cross someplace else. Custer evaluated the situation, had an OH SHIT moment and determined he couldn't cross and attack the village, turned away, and probably lost control of the battalion. Perhaps had he massed on LSH, Calhoun Hill, or by where the cometary would be, he could have held off the Indians (or been contained by the Indians) until they decided to leave.
Edit: I would not be surprised if the Indians were swarming/infiltrating across the river in as many places as they could find suitable for small groups and not concentrating at the ford.
Reno may have initially thought to go back the way he came, but was turned. He lucked out and discovered an unexpected place to ford (I bet the Indians thought they could pin him against the river) and cross the river followed by luckily occupying a good battle position where he was able to rally, however poorly, and luckily Benteen arrived ad they had enough force to hold the hill (or be contained long enough) until the Indians decided to leave.
Maybe Reno could have made use of the saber if they had brought them since he got involved in a hand to hand fight as he broke out.
Kellog was probably running for his life and was left behind, unable to keep up with whoever he was riding with. It amy well have been Custer. He probably should have ridden with Boyer and Curley and stayed on the ridge.
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