mac
Brigadier General
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Post by mac on Apr 18, 2021 9:55:01 GMT
Mark/Mike for Ford D to happen as the starting point then Custer did not go to Ford B. I thought I would post this here again for your consideration. I first raised this with Fred Wagner and he referred me to his book and said he had nothing to add to what he had written there. This part of one of my responses:-
"OK…how do we know he ever went to the river at Ford B?
The most compelling thing about the archaeology there is the surprising lack of evidence of any major action (other than making a movie).
The people who were actually in/viewing MTC when he was moving north say in their accounts that he never came near the river, that he came down and turned off at a hill (Calhoun Hill then behind Battle Ridge). Just as the JSIT account says.
Who says he came down to Ford B?
One problem with participant accounts is discerning what was actually seen and what is a description based on having been told by someone else. In my view all humans tend to do this and the problem is accentuated by the difficulties of translation. This makes me skeptical of many accounts of the approach to Ford B. Some warriors tell their stories as if they were everywhere on the field. I think we can be sure Custer approached the river and then withdrew up a ridge or watercourse to higher ground. I am not sure this happened at Ford B. Originally I was happy with the conventional theory but there were always things that seemed to me to not quite make sense, and the more I learned the greater this feeling. I am a scientist and as such as new evidence is presented to me I am prepared to alter my theories; this is the scientific method. I have read the article Fred posted and it is in my view a very well written and referenced piece. Personally I am hugely indebted to Fred for his research. I have said before that the timeline is crucial here, so let me use these time points; they are Command's Watch Time as used in the article.
3:06 Smith begins moving away from Ford B
2:50 Crazy Horse begins to gather his warriors at the Reno fight
3:02 Indians still in full force in the valley estimates of 600 to 1000.
3:27 Company L take up skirmish line positions
3:38 Crazy Horse and his band reach Ford B.
These are the warriors listed in the article as giving accounts of the retreat from Ford B. I have referenced them from Fred's great Participants in the Battle of the Little Big Horn.
Lone Bear was a follower of Crazy Horse ..arrival at Ford B 32 minutes after Smith left. Two Moon (a man who was everywhere) fought Reno...arrival probably after Crazy Horse as Crazy Horse was an early leaver in the Reno/valley fight. Foolish Elk with Crazy Horse ....arrival as above. Two Eagles fought Reno...arrival after Crazy Horse Lights fought Reno....as above Hollow Horn Bear fought Reno ... as above.
It is entirely probable that none of these men saw anything at Ford B other than Calhoun's skirmish line up on the slope of Calhoun Hill. After the battle they were told that "Custer" came down to the river and then retreated to higher ground and constructed a memory around Ford B. The idea is that the move to the river was by 5 companies at Ford D and has been wrongly interpreted as happening at Ford B. The timeline is correct but the time allocated to the Ford B excursion was in fact the window when the Ford D action was taking place as Custer went on the attack all the way to Ford D as in the John Stands in Timber account."
So you see Mark/Mike the warriors who witness the Ford B approach cannot (by Fred's timeline) actually be there to see it; as it happened while they were still up the valley fighting Reno. Add that to the lack of archaeology at Ford B (plenty at Ford D) and the probability that Custer went to Ford B looks low, especially when you consider the tactical wisdom of going there. I have to go now...more later. Cheers
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Post by mhoyt on Apr 20, 2021 21:51:24 GMT
Mark/Mike for Ford D to happen as the starting point then Custer did not go to Ford B. I thought I would post this here again for your consideration. I first raised this with Fred Wagner and he referred me to his book and said he had nothing to add to what he had written there. This part of one of my responses:-
"OK…how do we know he ever went to the river at Ford B?
The most compelling thing about the archaeology there is the surprising lack of evidence of any major action (other than making a movie).
The people who were actually in/viewing MTC when he was moving north say in their accounts that he never came near the river, that he came down and turned off at a hill (Calhoun Hill then behind Battle Ridge). Just as the JSIT account says.
Who says he came down to Ford B?
One problem with participant accounts is discerning what was actually seen and what is a description based on having been told by someone else. In my view all humans tend to do this and the problem is accentuated by the difficulties of translation. This makes me skeptical of many accounts of the approach to Ford B. Some warriors tell their stories as if they were everywhere on the field. I think we can be sure Custer approached the river and then withdrew up a ridge or watercourse to higher ground. I am not sure this happened at Ford B. Originally I was happy with the conventional theory but there were always things that seemed to me to not quite make sense, and the more I learned the greater this feeling. I am a scientist and as such as new evidence is presented to me I am prepared to alter my theories; this is the scientific method. I have read the article Fred posted and it is in my view a very well written and referenced piece. Personally I am hugely indebted to Fred for his research. I have said before that the timeline is crucial here, so let me use these time points; they are Command's Watch Time as used in the article.
3:06 Smith begins moving away from Ford B
2:50 Crazy Horse begins to gather his warriors at the Reno fight
3:02 Indians still in full force in the valley estimates of 600 to 1000.
3:27 Company L take up skirmish line positions
3:38 Crazy Horse and his band reach Ford B.
These are the warriors listed in the article as giving accounts of the retreat from Ford B. I have referenced them from Fred's great Participants in the Battle of the Little Big Horn.
Lone Bear was a follower of Crazy Horse ..arrival at Ford B 32 minutes after Smith left. Two Moon (a man who was everywhere) fought Reno...arrival probably after Crazy Horse as Crazy Horse was an early leaver in the Reno/valley fight. Foolish Elk with Crazy Horse ....arrival as above. Two Eagles fought Reno...arrival after Crazy Horse Lights fought Reno....as above Hollow Horn Bear fought Reno ... as above.
It is entirely probable that none of these men saw anything at Ford B other than Calhoun's skirmish line up on the slope of Calhoun Hill. After the battle they were told that "Custer" came down to the river and then retreated to higher ground and constructed a memory around Ford B. The idea is that the move to the river was by 5 companies at Ford D and has been wrongly interpreted as happening at Ford B. The timeline is correct but the time allocated to the Ford B excursion was in fact the window when the Ford D action was taking place as Custer went on the attack all the way to Ford D as in the John Stands in Timber account."
So you see Mark/Mike the warriors who witness the Ford B approach cannot (by Fred's timeline) actually be there to see it; as it happened while they were still up the valley fighting Reno. Add that to the lack of archaeology at Ford B (plenty at Ford D) and the probability that Custer went to Ford B looks low, especially when you consider the tactical wisdom of going there. I have to go now...more later. Cheers
I don't have a big problem with a Ford D scenario. I think there are a few possible scenarios. I think that we know that if several men with Reno Saw Custer on Reno Hill before he went into the skirmish line, and that he spent about 30 minutes skirmishing before 15 minutes "breaking out" - that in 45 minutes, Custer moving at an 8 mph trot (or 6 mph in formation, tired horses), could cover the 4.1 miles from Reno Hill to Last Stand Hill in about those same 45 minutes, if he didn't stop. Custer to me isn't much of a guy to be at a halt. Ford D or the approach is another mile.
So your right, any warriors who chased down Custer, and then like LWM went back to the village and got a fresh horse (because they have to travel at least 6 miles to go back to the village, and then across to LSH) not only have to finish the Reno fight but take at least 20 minutes at a gallop, 5 minutes to change horses and get it roped right, and then 5 more minutes to get to the Custer fight. So I agree Custer has a long time -- and he could of approached Ford D. The men left in the timber said the fight went on for at least 90 minutes. One said 3 hours.
My favorite Custer scenario (Again many probable) which I am sure is stolen from others has that part of that as a focus, but has two battalions split, with the Lakota engaging the rear battalion who is in reserve, first at Nye-Cartwright/Luce who then cross to Calhoun Hill after seeing Custer move out of line of sight. As the reserve Keogh goes to CH, but gets engaged by Lakota who use Ford B to get behind Keogh.
Custer with the other battalion going N-NW for some target whether Village or Civilians is probably blunted by the Cheyenee or Tsisistas. I buy that they probably came from Ford D, even though I have the village ending at the Ford B area (Michno is right I think), but there may have been other things to defend at Ford D. Those Tsisistas and maybe a group with Crazy Horse drive the troops approaching Ford D back and there are minimal casualties until the Cav forces start showing weakness by falling back or failure to return fire in significant enough amounts to prevent the high casualty rates found on the battlefield.
As for cartridges and bullets, early visitors (civilians in 1877) who visited the battlefield said there were thousands, and the shells they describe match the types stated by Fox, but they say "thousands". The Army in 1876 had a policy to police all brass, because they thought wrongly or rightly that the natives re-loaded shells (so it doesn't matter if the warriors did or did not). With all the visitors to the battlefield in the early years (literally in the tens of thousands at some events), I think 99% of the evidence was removed. But, I don't argue that there is evidence that the fight went off the current battlefield memorial in both directions actually. What bullets and shells depict is where there was fighting, but I think so much material was removed it doesn't really depict how much.
Oh and I liked Fred's timeline its based on logic, but he doesn't like anyone disagreeing that much with him. And no one will every know exactly what happened, I HAVE MY THEORIES THOUGH>...LOL
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2021 22:05:13 GMT
Mac
I’m not sure where you think I’m opposed to the movement to Ford D. What I have said is I like the approach to Ford B. As an armor officer it feels okay from the map and photographs. When I get there and look at it my evaluation might change.
Regardless of what Ford he was aiming for, I’m mystified about how Custer’s battalion ended up the way it did. If he went anywhere with two companies, AND left three companies behind, then it makes sense.
Obviously I don’t dispute they ended up where they did. I want to have an idea of how and why. Blundering at all levels probably explains it.
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Post by mhoyt on Apr 20, 2021 23:08:41 GMT
Mac I’m not sure where you think I’m opposed to the movement to Ford D. What I have said is I like the approach to Ford B. As an armor officer it feels okay from the map and photographs. When I get there and look at it my evaluation might change. Regardless of what Ford he was aiming for, I’m mystified about how Custer’s battalion ended up the way it did. If he went anywhere with two companies, AND left three companies behind, then it makes sense. Obviously I don’t dispute they ended up where they did. I want to have an idea of how and why. Blundering at all levels probably explains it. And maybe the fact that the at least 1500 or moe Lakota and Tsisistas warriors and their capabilities were vastly under appreciated by the entire senior staff of the US Army, and that if it was understood, maybe Terry doesn't split his column. To your point, Blundering at Sheridan's level (departments operate independently?), Terry's level (split forces?), Custer's Level (below for Ford D), Reno's Level (break-out to soon?), Benteen's Level (dawdle?), Moylan's Level (some accounts have him mounting before getting orders)... you can throw a lot of blunderings here.
For Ford D though, if Custer went that far forward -- then he made several bad assumptions. 1. The warriors couldn't outrun him. 2. That they wouldn't stand and fight. 3. His 200 men were not as good as the opposition. 4. That he needed to go defensive ASAP to have a chance. 5. That Benteen was coming up, or Reno was chasing them out of the village. IF he went to Ford D, and he had two battalions they may never have been able to link-up given what we see at the Rosebud, and Reno's "break-out" respectively.
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Apr 22, 2021 12:38:42 GMT
Just to repeat the Red Hawk account of what he saw when he was returning along the East side of the river after leaving the Reno fight.
Nicholas Ruleau describes Red Hawk's (Oglala) account of the Little Big Horn battle to Eli Ricker on Nov. 20, 1906, at Pine Ridge Agency, Eli S. Ricker Collection, Nebraska State Historical Society, reel 5, tablet 29, pp. 84-99, published in Richard Hardorff's Lakota Recollections, and in Voices of the American West: The Indian Accounts of Eli Ricker
These latter soldiers were coming down the ridge in 3 divisions. They did not come down to the river. The first division came to a point about 1/2 mile or 3/4 mile from the river. The Indians fell back down the river bottom through the village and crossed the Little Big Horn at the only crossing and went up the high hill in the direction of Reno and from there assailed the leading division. Crazy Horse and Gall and Knife Chief were haranguing the Indians to get together so they could make another charge on the soldiers.
He (Red Hawk) says when the Indians all got together, they went down from this point or hill and met the first division of these soldiers and they fought this back to the second division; from that they drove the two divisions back to the first division.
All this time the soldiers fought bravely; he adds that he never saw soldiers fight like they did. He says several Indians were killed now but no soldiers were killed. The officers tried their utmost to keep the soldiers together at this point, but the horses were unmanageable; they would rear up and fall backward with their riders; some would get away. The Indians force the troopers back to where the first stand was made on Calhoun Hill and the ridge running from there to the river. At this place the soldiers stood in line and made a very good fight. The soldiers delivered volley after volley into the dense ranks of the Indians without any perceptible effect on account of their great numbers. The Indians kept coming like an increasing flood which could not be checked. The soldiers were swept off their feet; they could not stay; the Indians were overwhelming. This makes it very clear that he saw three groups returning along the back of Battle Ridge. They were stopped by running into Gall and Crazy Horse. The first two ( C and L) were pushed together after a stand on Calhoun Hill and FF Ridge and then they were pushed back onto the third group (Company I). Compare this to what Gall has to say and they mesh nicely. It also explains the presence of Crazy Horse and meshes with his role in smashing Company I. Cheers
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Post by yanmacca on Apr 23, 2021 5:41:50 GMT
How did he see Keogh Mac, from FFR upwards, red hawk would only see C & L, I would be back behind the ridge or even travelling from BRE?
If red hawk has nailed this move south, it would suggest that the three companies formed a U shaped defence of the southern end of battle ridge, and each taking up a position as and when they arrived, which vindicates Keogh of bad leadership of a battalion he never commanded.
For a fold up of companies, it would suggest that each one in turn was a refuge point, could this mean that Keogh was not hit by Crazy Horse until after he excepted survivors from C & L?
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Apr 23, 2021 8:21:51 GMT
He was on the high ground opposite Calhoun Hill Ian, as he returned from Reno on the east side, so he could see everything from there.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2021 12:01:09 GMT
What do you mean by "Reno"?
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Post by yanmacca on Apr 23, 2021 20:04:22 GMT
The valley fight Mike, Mac was using Reno as a term for this.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2021 20:13:12 GMT
OIC. Thanks.
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Apr 28, 2021 17:42:05 GMT
Here is a Google Earth Pro picture of an old foundation. In my recent visit to the battlefield one of the Indians shared where he was told that Custer approached ford Ds. He stated where the old house use to be. Tom and I have been there numerous times. I can see it better than what we saw on the ground. Regards Steve
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Post by quincannon on Apr 28, 2021 17:51:33 GMT
Can you put some height distance on this photo and still keep the house identifiable, while giving us some perspective as to where it is in regard to other recognizable landmarks?
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Post by yanmacca on Apr 28, 2021 18:52:27 GMT
Got it! you can still see it in relation to the road and river.
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Post by yanmacca on Apr 28, 2021 18:53:36 GMT
It is quite close to the old river course too, which gives you an excellent view on the area the cavalry may have tried to cross.
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Post by quincannon on Apr 28, 2021 19:53:02 GMT
That location makes all kinds of sense. Does not solve any problems though. The rest of the battalion could be either or, and that location represents only one company which I expect it does.
Either/Or goes back to an early conversation on one of these threads:
One company at that location could mean the entire battalion was near by, say to the west intending to cross the river at or near the present highway and railroad overpass.
One company at that location may also mean they were sent there as a flank guard for the remainder of the battalion, which intended to cross further northwest near that Sage Motel sire that Tom and Steve mentioned some time ago. In that instance this location may represent that flanking companies mission to flush out anyone skulking in the timber along the river, much the same as Reno had that flanking party skirting the timber along the river as he moved northward. In that instance that may be the answer to those Indian tales of - Custer got to the river - Custer never got to the river. Under that circumstance both would be completely correct. Additionally if that unit in question that was near Steve's old house was Company E, then it is perfectly logical they would move back to the western slope of Cemetery Ridge.
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