azranger
Brigadier General
Ranger
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Post by azranger on May 23, 2021 15:30:10 GMT
If this building marks the location of the first skirmish of the northern attack, then does it mean that the Custer battalion never made it as far as where the bridges are now? The building by itself means nothing except it is a place that in retrospect is used as an easily identified spot to mark what could be the center of mass of elements of the 7th at a given time. It has the same relevance of someone's account saying "near where the monument is (now)" since the monument was not there at the time. I agree. The Crow that told me about it was a relative of Tom LaForge. My Crow friend who owns parts of Cedar Coulee was along and they found out they had common relatives. Where was American Horse at the time he starts his narration? Was he near the Reno-Benteen BP? Did he rush north instantly? Does the fighting he describes mark where he met troops along Calhoun-Battle-Custer Hill Ridge? Or does it refer to some location near the building where he (others?) saw troops coming down to Ford D? That is what we are sorting out. These accounts include what they are told and what they actually observed. It is complicated in that you need permission to share what you hear. We also met with a Cheyenne tribal representative to discuss what we have heard.
What is interesting to me is that Tom is coming up with things to look at from difference sources but in the same general area. The activity we are looking at would be closer to the Trading Post and the river near the old Sage Motel.
What is the speed of information from an observer near Ford D to the Reno BP? I think it is to far to have observed both locations in real time events.Assumptions: It's about 5 straight line miles from the building to the Reno BP, to account for up, down, and a circutous path for a rider, lets say it is 7 miles. Horse gallops at 25 mph; without any delays that would take 16 - 17 minutes. He's shouting all the way and other's are relaying the information, so let's say it take 10 minutes for the information to get to the south. While individual Indians may react nearly instantly, it would probably take the group at least 10 minutes to respond (I once timed my dug in infantry's time to mount and report ready to move and it took them 30 minutes. They were not otherwise bothered during the exercise, so I don't think this is totally unreasonable.) If the group as a whole rides directly North, then they don't get to the area for 37 minutes since the messenger left. But wait! Some Indians went back to the village and called it a day, others went directly to the fight, and others went to the village, changed horses, prepared, and then moved to join the others. Let's say that takes 10 minutes. If Indians in the village have already been preparing and had their horses, not unreasonable, then they could have responded much faster, again perhaps within 10 minutes. But Indian reports indicate they were surprised both by Reno's attack as well as the appearance of Custer appearing from the North (where all good barbarians come from anyway.) So people are swarming and arriving near the battle scene anywhere from 37 - 60 minutes from the sighting of Custer. In this time, Custer has swung back from the Ford D area and has troops on or near Calhoun Hill and Last Stand Hill. They were not heavily pressured at that time, right? And if they were opposed near the river/ford (if we move accounts of a troop moving to the ford, perhaps testing it, and an officer being shot and falling in the ford, they are not fighting the 7th as they come down the hill toward the ford, but across the ford from the southern side of the river. Since he turned back toward LSH, we can infer he was repulsed in this location. If American Horse is near the Reno fight, then the troops are not being attacked as they are coming down to Ford D, but as they are moving into position vicinity Calhoun Hill, thus we have a meeting engagement. The area the building is a part of is relatively flat and the path of the river then (as I look at it here) makes for a reasonable ford location near the building. I like your review and agree. I believe American Horse was in the north and relayed what he heard about the Reno fight. View AttachmentI think you are close with those line. Gibbons ford is just to east of there . So the question is if all 5 companies were moving north how would the have moved. That is not my area to comment on since we have so many military experts here. Last June I spent 3 hours walking on the east branch of BRE which is west of the new entrance road.
What I know is that Indian accounts have soldiers down near the location of the old Sage Motel. That is where a returning Cheyenne hunting party made contact. The theory part is who were those soldiers. Could it be C,I,L ?
I stand by for views of people who have been there, know more about the speed of horse, how long it might take to prepare, and with vaster knowledge than I. I believe that you have a grasp of horse speeds and can figure out if they exceed maximums. What I do believe is that speed under fire would more likely be less than maximum. The Indians on the other could move across open travel corridors in the village and change horses if they desired.
I like going to Indian relay races to watch these great riders.
Regards
Steve
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2021 17:52:57 GMT
I'm not sure I understand what you mean above. Do you mean if a person tells you something, you have to ask his permission to repeat it to the board or your wife? It seems to me this is a barrier to communication and it makes it more difficult for other people to understand just what their issues and positions are. "If you don't wish something heard, don't say it. Precisely. What I was trying to figure out is you are standing watching the troops come toward Ford D. I am down by Reno Hill. How long will it take if you instantly begin riding to tell the folks down there that the enemy is coming from the North? How fast will it spread if you're voice carriers through all the din and people further away start. So, fifeteen minutes for you to get down there, 5 minutes to tell everyone, 5-15 minutes for people to get organized and get going, and 15 minutes to get back. Meanwhile, the enemy is moving one way or the other. Thanks. I presume they moved along the access road to Calhoun Hill, up Battle Ridge, and then along my lines, but that's just a guess. I'd be on the north side of the ridge so the enemy wouldn't see me. Sage Model is Southwest of the building ruins? I am away from my maps at the moment. The question will answer itself when I get home. (all this is in my head at this point.) military experts. I am an armored cavalryman. The horse is made of iron, eats gas instead of hay, get's first round hits, no snaffle bits, and sabers are passe. You and chuck are light infantryman. I dare say your mode of movement, tactics, and combat is closer to the dragoon type tactics used in the civil war and this period. My thoughts have to be monitored very carefully to ensure I don't assume modern movement rates (15 - 25mph) and engagement ranges (1000m is as close as I like to be). You moved as part of a platoon which was bigger than the companies were at the time. While you didn't move out of contact as fast, once you are in it, dismounted infantry combat is much more like theirs than my idea of mounted combat and dismounting on or beyond the objective to clear it. I don't even like to be near horses, much less ride them. You USMC experience plus your mounted work makes you in some ways much more closer and more experienced than I am. Thus, I dare say, you idea of how a group of horseman would move tactically from point A to point B in tactical situation is just as good, if not better than, my view as I attempt to juxtapose more modern tactics on an 18th century battle. Its why I am looking so hard for a copy of Upton's Cavalry Tactics. So if you say a group of 100 horsemen can or cannot move down MTC to Ford B, I am inclined to take that very seriously, but I still need to go look for myself, not because I don't believe you, but because I have moved on much worse terrain than what is presented to me on the map and on aerial photographs. So quit apoligizing.  (Particularly if you were in combat. My combat experience is in the Division Main Command Post and my conduct their resulted in the award of the BSM with "T" device (T for typing).) Again, Thanks. See above. I have a grasp of these timings from reading a book and asking my across the street neighbor questions (she owns five horses). I am not getting on one to see how it goes. I agree maneuver under fire is slower than movement out of contact. When I talk to light infantrymen, I'm usually aghast at how long it takes them to do something. Not because they are slow, but because it is just outside my experience as a cavalryman. (Never mind frigging aviators, who move almost too fast for me to comprehend and navigate.) The great value of the M1 tank was its ability to use a burst of speed to move from cover to cover at 40mph if you are crazy rather than 10-15MPH for the M60 or M113 (and even then I camm home with bruises all over my ribcage because my drivers knew how to use terrain for protection while allowing me to see and control my unit.) Of course, if you are in my sights, the compuer computes the lead and applies it together with wind speed and direction, my speed, your speed, temperature outside and of the propellent. All I have to do is keep my cross hairs on the target, range, and pull the trigger and in under a second, the penetrator says hello. I'll understand more betterer when/if I get there. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2021 18:32:49 GMT
Here is a map view and a google view. Map is first, google view 2nd. On the google view, the dashed yellow line represents another line of effort moving through what I think is the hotel grounds.   |
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Post by yanmacca on May 23, 2021 19:43:17 GMT
I know the building means nothing, and is nothing more than a reference point, as there was no structure there in 1876, but the point I was making is the same for other manmade structures which were built post battle, as in many Indian account they mention the stones (cemetery) and the monument (LSH). Interestingly enough, if you look at the JSIT map and see how the soldiers may have used the middle ravine as Crazy Horse Ravine is shown on the map and the soldiers go to the right of it, then you will see a structure just like a house, check it out as the soldiers pass by it going west before veering northish and moving back east! This would make the crossing place on the otherside of the one posted on the google earth map.
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Post by Beth on May 23, 2021 20:05:38 GMT
Where would Kellogg's original marker have been in relationship to the building? I think I recall the locations but time has taken a toll.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on May 23, 2021 20:54:35 GMT
Beth, this is a guess, less than200 yards. The foundation does come much closer to the old road, however.
Regards,
Tom
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Post by quincannon on May 23, 2021 21:59:09 GMT
Maybe 200 yards or a bit more as the crow flies, but more like 400 on the ground, taking in the bend in the river.
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,800
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Post by mac on May 24, 2021 5:41:41 GMT
I know the building means nothing, and is nothing more than a reference point, as there was no structure there in 1876, but the point I was making is the same for other manmade structures which were built post battle, as in many Indian account they mention the stones (cemetery) and the monument (LSH). Interestingly enough, if you look at the JSIT map and see how the soldiers may have used the middle ravine as Crazy Horse Ravine is shown on the map and the soldiers go to the right of it, then you will see a structure just like a house, check it out as the soldiers pass by it going west before veering northish and moving back east! This would make the crossing place on the otherside of the one posted on the google earth map.
Good get Ian. I have been looking at my copy of the map and that does look like the location of the house. I love it when all these things coincide. Cheers
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Post by yanmacca on May 24, 2021 7:56:36 GMT
Thanks Mac, I have been looking at that map for years and never took any notice of that square or squares, I was just checking on the routes down from cemetery ridge and BRE and noticed how those marks corresponds with the house.
I wonder if JSIT also used that house as a reference point as it looks like it was standing when he was making his map.
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azranger
Brigadier General
Ranger
Posts: 1,824
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Post by azranger on May 24, 2021 16:22:03 GMT
I'm not sure I understand what you mean above. Do you mean if a person tells you something, you have to ask his permission to repeat it to the board or your wife? It seems to me this is a barrier to communication and it makes it more difficult for other people to understand just what their issues and positions are. "If you don't wish something heard, don't say it. Just because you get a personal account it does not mean you have to permission to print it or use their name. This is quite common when talking with Indians. There are also some formalities that should be done.
I agree and I wish I could share everything. Another complication is that I receive information from authors with the caveat to not share until their book is published. I hope they publish before they the pass away. Tom is in the same boat in that we hear things that we asked not to repeat.
Precisely. What I was trying to figure out is you are standing watching the troops come toward Ford D. I am down by Reno Hill. How long will it take if you instantly begin riding to tell the folks down there that the enemy is coming from the North? How fast will it spread if you're voice carriers through all the din and people further away start. So, fifeteen minutes for you to get down there, 5 minutes to tell everyone, 5-15 minutes for people to get organized and get going, and 15 minutes to get back. Meanwhile, the enemy is moving one way or the other. Thanks. I presume they moved along the access road to Calhoun Hill, up Battle Ridge, and then along my lines, but that's just a guess. I'd be on the north side of the ridge so the enemy wouldn't see me. Sage Model is Southwest of the building ruins? I am away from my maps at the moment. The question will answer itself when I get home. (all this is in my head at this point.) I follow what Curley states. They entered MTC from Middle Coulee. Some went straight across and the gray horses moved down toward the Big Village. I believe it was CIL that went straight across and I dupilcated that ride going through the artifacts of Luce and Nye Cartwright. I believe E and F along with Custer moved down MTC and within around 600 yard from the ford. This comes from Martin. Benteen comments that Martin shows where he sent back from and Benteen states it was about 600 yards from the ford. Last June I rode with my Marine Crow friend and we duplicated what we believe Martin stated. We started about 600 yards from MTF and lined up on the east side of Weir and moved in that direction. We cut across several drainages as Martin describes and we ended up on the ridge that separates Cedar Coulee from Middle Coulee.military experts. I am an armored cavalryman. The horse is made of iron, eats gas instead of hay, get's first round hits, no snaffle bits, and sabers are passe. You and chuck are light infantryman. I dare say your mode of movement, tactics, and combat is closer to the dragoon type tactics used in the civil war and this period. My thoughts have to be monitored very carefully to ensure I don't assume modern movement rates (15 - 25mph) and engagement ranges (1000m is as close as I like to be). You moved as part of a platoon which was bigger than the companies were at the time. While you didn't move out of contact as fast, once you are in it, dismounted infantry combat is much more like theirs than my idea of mounted combat and dismounting on or beyond the objective to clear it. I don't even like to be near horses, much less ride them. You USMC experience plus your mounted work makes you in some ways much more closer and more experienced than I am. Thus, I dare say, you idea of how a group of horseman would move tactically from point A to point B in tactical situation is just as good, if not better than, my view as I attempt to juxtapose more modern tactics on an 18th century battle. Its why I am looking so hard for a copy of Upton's Cavalry Tactics. So if you say a group of 100 horsemen can or cannot move down MTC to Ford B, I am inclined to take that very seriously, but I still need to go look for myself, not because I don't believe you, but because I have moved on much worse terrain than what is presented to me on the map and on aerial photographs. So quit apoligizing. (Particularly if you were in combat. My combat experience is in the Division Main Command Post and my conduct their resulted in the award of the BSM with "T" device (T for typing).) Again, Thanks. See above. I have a grasp of these timings from reading a book and asking my across the street neighbor questions (she owns five horses). I am not getting on one to see how it goes. I agree maneuver under fire is slower than movement out of contact. When I talk to light infantrymen, I'm usually aghast at how long it takes them to do something. Not because they are slow, but because it is just outside my experience as a cavalryman. (Never mind frigging aviators, who move almost too fast for me to comprehend and navigate.) Agree I was a Marine and on foot. As a Ranger for AZGFD I rode horseback patrol and carried a GPS unit. I have thousands of miles recorded. That is how I got involved with Gordon Harper in PMs. He wanted to have accurate GPS locations and was not familiar with it use.
He passed away before we could do it but his daughter came down to Montana in his place. I had brought my saddle and equipment and we rode Benteen's Scout to the Left following the research of Roger Darling. I took my GPS unit which was attached to a rear D ring on my saddle. The great value of the M1 tank was its ability to use a burst of speed to move from cover to cover at 40mph if you are crazy rather than 10-15MPH for the M60 or M113 (and even then I camm home with bruises all over my ribcage because my drivers knew how to use terrain for protection while allowing me to see and control my unit.) Of course, if you are in my sights, the compuer computes the lead and applies it together with wind speed and direction, my speed, your speed, temperature outside and of the propellent. All I have to do is keep my cross hairs on the target, range, and pull the trigger and in under a second, the penetrator says hello. My Department is transitioning to Red Dot sites for our Sig P320s. Handguns are odd in that you focus on the weapon rather than the threat. The Red Dot allows you to focus on the threat an move the Red Dot on to the threat.I'll understand more betterer when/if I get there. I think that you end up with a path (opinion) that you feel comfortable with but may not be what everyone believes.
Regards
Steve |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2021 18:00:04 GMT
Steve,
Interesting. When I was taught at the Armor Basic Course how to shoot a pistol, we weren't told to use the sights at all. Before we even touched a pistol, we were told to just put up our shooting hand with the index finger out and the thumb up, just like kids when we were playing. No one ever misses what they point at. After several exercises with that, we then picked up the pistol and treated it like the barrel was our index finger instead. Again, the pointing for a bit. Then we fired. I qualified expert every time I fired regardless of the age of my pistol or its barrel wear. I taught my daughters how to shoot that way and they can hit consistently, though none of them own any weapons.
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Post by quincannon on May 25, 2021 3:04:47 GMT
You know I always look at these secretive things with a jaundiced eye. With the Indians it is cultural, and I understand that, understand it, but still don't really approve of the practice. I would think that culture or not, these things should be out in the public domain in the interests of mutual understanding.
With authors, I generally don't like the breed that is enmeshed in the LBH genera. Playing I've got a secret, smacks to me of I know more than you do, you unworthy ones. It is typical of the breed, and I guess I just don't give two hoots in hell for the breed.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2021 3:23:58 GMT
I get your point of view. I don't get the Indian POV. If I don't want you to repeat something I tell you, the only way to do that is not to tell you. Now, if there is something deeply cultural like this person for whatever reason tells you the location of Crazy Horse's grave, yeah I get that. You don't need want every Tom, Dick, or Harry mucking around there. And its on tribal land. Telling somebody, My great.great.great.great.uncle's friend shot Custer off his horse right over there, is not the same thing. Keeping grubby people off of tribal property or ancient remains I get too. (Although sometimes I think the difference between archeology and grave robbing is 1000 years and a collage degree.).
With author's I sort of get it. They may think rightly or wrongly that they have a fresh look/fact and they don't want it leaked until their book is published. I get that. The thing to do is sign an Non-Disclosure agreement containing the proviso that after the book is published you can do whatever it is you want with the knowledge. I have signed a few software and other intellectual knowledge things that the author wanted to be close hold. I I wanted to talk about it to you, I'd just tell him who you are, why I want to tell you, and they always said okay. Sometimes, the author would ask me to have them sign the NDA. No sweat. I'd say, I can tell you, but I you have to sign this and we have to talk to Joe, if you want to tell someone else. The only reason I would want to tell someone else is I think he has information I need to help the original author improve his story/POV.
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Post by yanmacca on May 25, 2021 5:38:27 GMT
I have broached this subject before and even now it still feels alien to me.
Right, so let me add that this is not a racial point, but imagine if I owned the "forest of bowland", and my land had main public roads cutting through it, but the land was private, let's say that I had huge public gatherings four times a year and only white Catholics who where born in Lancashire could attend and any other "bod" who just happens to show up, gets the cold shoulder and escorted off my property, there would be hell to pay, it would make the news!
That is what this sounds like to me, the Sioux are acting in a similar way as they did in the 19th century with no whites allowed to even pass through their land.
That my friends is racist.
Keeping info in house and not Sharing is just being "snobbish", this battle is a part of American history, keeping accounts from white historians is again a type of racism and rather petty too, why don't they wisen up and release their own books then, make money from it
I really hope that this is not done with the idea of " lets spite the white eyes, I really do, as you are all Americans and that should not be the case in the "land of the free, home if the brave".
Bottom line is that you can't always "have your cake and eat it"
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Post by quincannon on May 25, 2021 16:35:01 GMT
The motivations of men remain a mystery Ian, especially in this - I've got mine - screw you - age we live in.
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(Particularly if you were in combat. My combat experience is in the Division Main Command Post and my conduct their resulted in the award of the BSM with "T" device (T for typing).) 
