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Post by quincannon on Mar 15, 2023 1:29:41 GMT
Ian: The above is how commanders are taught to think. It must be done rapidly, because you never know what the other guy is thinking, and never know when he is going to show up and ruin your day. And you damned well better be right. No do overs, No second chances. You must be right the first time. You have sixty seconds commander. Think fast, your people are waiting for their orders.
One other thing. If you are afraid of making a mistake, you are in the wrong business. You should be working at a gas station or a bakery, and not leading soldiers in combat.
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colt45
First Lieutenant
Posts: 439
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Post by colt45 on Mar 15, 2023 2:03:02 GMT
Mike, Combining actions 3 and 4 into one is my choice. I stay and defend due to the devastated state of Reno's 3 companies, at least for the immediate time being, and the fact the packs have not arrived just yet. Time is needed to get reorganized.
Recon to the north with a small detachment gives information on the immediate threat, which is to the north. This is the known threat zone at the time of the battle due to the firing heard to the north, plus the fact Benteen had just come from the south. This recon should be sent out asap.
Recon back south for a more defensible position is a sort of plan-B action, in case remaining in place proves to be a bad deal. Benteen would have knowledge of most of the terrain on the back trail so a detachment to scout south could possibly be omitted, but at the time he was advancing toward Reno from his scout, he was probably not thinking about defending anywhere in that area, so a scout for defensible terrain makes sense, using a small detachment. This should be sent out quickly, but not as quickly as the northern scout team.
Upon return of the intelligence from the northern scouts, a decision to remain in place or advance to the north can be intelligently made.
If the intel had shown a move north was the right choice, I would not plan on moving the wounded. Rather I would leave just enough troops to protect the wounded and to continue to fortify the position. As you know, any time you are stopping for more than a very short time, you begin preparing for defense in that place in case you wind up remaining for more than a very short time. Emphasis on VERY short time.
As to some of your other points, you have 3 of 7 companies busted up pretty good. Custer has 5 companies. The odds are good that 4 good companies plus the remains of 3 companies probably would not have a significant impact on Custer's situation if a move to the north is attempted.
Pros of combining courses 3 and 4:
- Consolidatiom of forces remaining on the hill - Ability of consolidate command - Supplies are on hand - Wounded can be cared for - Sending scout teams (4-6 troopers) asap gathers critical information that is needed on the overall situation - Defensive positions can be constructed/improved - Time is available to formulate a plan of action beyond the moment at hand
Cons:
- About 1/2 the regiment is missing, with their status unknown - The hill position is not good defensive terrain - The Custer battalion may need assistance and resupply - Remaining in place jeopardizes the achievement of the overall mission (returning hostiles to the reservations) - Remaining in place commits to a defensive operation, giving up initiative
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Post by quincannon on Mar 15, 2023 2:55:21 GMT
Exceptional. Simply exceptional
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Post by miker on Mar 15, 2023 2:58:33 GMT
Colt: seems reasonable to me.
Time: sometimes you only have seconds. In this case I'd say you have the luxury of 5-15 minutes and you know the Indians suddenly left. You probably have time to issue more ammunition when the trains arrive. We know Reno had longer, but you don't want to waste time.
Something - ANYTHING - constructive done at once is better than the right thing hours later.
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Post by quincannon on Mar 15, 2023 4:38:49 GMT
Time: Rarely your friend, and can be your worst enemy
Speaking of time, it's time to pull out my box of Cracked Pepper and Olive Oil Triscuits, with a small dish of Arby's Horsey Sauce for dipping and while away the next hour listening to Nocturn (gets my sleep genes mojo working) and relax after a very tiring day.
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Post by yanmacca on Mar 15, 2023 11:20:58 GMT
You was doing alright QC till your last post, how commanders are taught to think, well how many company and battalion commanders where on Reno Hill that afternoon and made some really poor decisions, in fact I wonder how many bad decisions were made by the commanders on a whole, trained officers, many who served in the ACW, the whole thing was a shambles, in the case of Custer, a bloody shambles link
We can all ponder with hindsight on what they should have done, the fact is that these professional soldiers cocked up, so being trained to act didn’t cut it that day and as for comments by Robel (who reminds me of Lieutenant Parker out of Fury), I would rather listen to Colt to be honest.
I will not reply to any further writings on this thread, I feel patronized enough.
Hi Colt hope you are well.
One last word: Being a Historian but not a soldier doesn't exclude you from being knowledgeable or right when it comes down to Military History or theory. Equally a serving soldier can write good Military History without being formerly trained as a Historian. Neither are mutually exclusive and it also works the other way that they can both write bad Military History because they approach it with to narrow a focus or worldview.
Ian
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Post by miker on Mar 15, 2023 12:25:35 GMT
To be fair, officers were not taught the way they are today. As I have said several times, there is evidence that officers did not really think about tactics at all. Many of the things we do today had no counterpart. I regularly confess I have to apply myself to not automatically applying today's doctrinal concepts to that era's operations as well as trying to only see what we think they now and not conflate my actions with better, though still incomplete, knowledge of what they knew was happening.
Being taught how to do something doesn't mean you will always do the right thing. Even if you do, the other commander/force might be better than yours and you will lose anyway. Indeed, you can do everything right and still lose.
I prefer to be compared to Oddball from Kelly's Heros.
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azranger
Brigadier General
Ranger
Posts: 1,824
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Post by azranger on Mar 15, 2023 15:59:55 GMT
Ian
I think Chuck was talking about a collective you rather than you personally. Decision making under stress and timely is not something everyone possesses.
Regards Steve
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Post by quincannon on Mar 15, 2023 16:50:44 GMT
Yes, the collective or theoretical YOU Ian. I consider myself fairly smart but over 80 years I have still failed to read someone's mind, and understand their understanding. I think there was a guy in Marvel Comics that could do it, but so far I myself have not reached superhero status.
Now if you really want to feel bad about yourself, having stepped on your swantz in public, you may be quite a gifted amateur historian in your own right, but you are not and never have been a commander. Were you, you would readily realize and understand that both Mike and Colt were giving you nothing more, or less, in their posts but a written version of the commander's courses of action analysis. It is usually a mental rather than a written down process. Both were quite, quite good if I may say so, considering both of them are a couple of broke dick tankers.
You really must get over the idea that ANYONE is out to insult or demean you in any way Ian. They are not, and never have been to my knowledge. Disagree does not mean insult or demean, Having related experience talking to someone who does not have it, is not meant to be insulting or demeaning. It is meant to be informative. What the real you must really get over though is thinking every time the word YOU is used it means you personally. It can, but 99% of the time it means the figurative you, a not real person, an example of a person to illustrate a point.
Finally, I wish to express my displeasure and dismay at you thinking that just because someone has had military experience, and you have not, that we hold ourselves superior to you or anyone else. Yes, when you practice the craft for four, five, ten, twenty or more years you learn things by experience, hard lessons that are not to be found in any text book, field manual, or historical tome concerning that craft. It is the sum total of experience gained during that portion of one's life. Historians no matter how gifted they are, but without that type of experience, cannot begin to understand the depth of it. Not even the best of them. It's like driving a car. You can read about cars, and how to drive until the Second Coming of Christ, but unless you get behind the wheel and drive, you can have no complete appreciation of what driving is all about. Do professionals make mistakes? You bet your sweet ass they do. Lots of them, every frigging day of their lives. That is not because they were not properly trained. It is because they are human, just like all the rest of mankind
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Post by Elwood on Mar 15, 2023 18:36:12 GMT
I prefer to be compared to Oddball from Kelly's Heros. Ok, just watch it with the negative waves.
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Post by quincannon on Mar 15, 2023 18:54:20 GMT
Mike is a negative wave, except when he is a positive wave, which is most of the time. But you must forgive him Elwood, he matriculated at Knox, there in Hillbilly Heaven, where the water is mixed with corn, their National Guard unit are called Orphans, and nose picking is considered a fine art form.
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Post by miker on Mar 15, 2023 22:43:54 GMT
I prefer to be compared to Oddball from Kelly's Heros. Ok, just watch it with the negative waves. You have me confused with members of his crew. It's a beautiful mother of a bridge and it's gonna be there! My specialty was finding open bridges, underpasses, overpasses, fords, and holes in the enemy defense. At least in Field Training Exercises. During Desert Storm I mostly sat on my ass in the HHC Kitchen truck trying to catch up with the battle. I did, however, get a Bronze Start with "T" for typing.
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Post by quincannon on Mar 15, 2023 22:52:26 GMT
They don't award Bronze Stars with a T device. Nor do they award Bronze Stars for showing up as they did in the past. Somehow, I think (I know) he was doing a bit more than sitting on his ass in the headquarters kitchen truck, unless the coffee is a hell of a lot better than it was in my headquarters kitchen truck. Modesty fibbing is one of Mike's strong suits Elwood.
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Post by Elwood on Mar 15, 2023 23:29:21 GMT
Modesty fibbing is one of Mike's strong suits Elwood. Good to know. And Oddball was a quite capable tank commander. Eccentric, unorthodox, but capable.
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Post by miker on Mar 15, 2023 23:57:37 GMT
I actually tried to refuse it when I was told I would be decorated. The G-3 told me to STFU and Soldier. I got the last two words: "Yes, Sir!" and saluted. I continue to be embarrassed by it but am now grateful for the award, but no more so than for the 1st ID patch combat patch I have. Still, we were out of the fight for about 80% of the fight due to lack of comms and not knowing where the Chief of Staff had gone or the location of the Division Tactical CP.
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