|
Post by Elwood on Dec 2, 2022 20:49:26 GMT
Agreed. No more Bulge/WWII matters on this thread.
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Dec 2, 2022 23:34:42 GMT
Be happy to start one. Say the word.
|
|
|
Post by Elwood on Dec 3, 2022 16:42:58 GMT
Well yes you should start one. Or isn’t there already a WWII thread here somewhere?
|
|
|
Post by Elwood on Mar 13, 2023 18:12:12 GMT
I've seen Custer Apollo name mentioned on here a couple of times. I've listened to/watched his Youtube stuff quite a bit, mainly before I visited LBH last September. So, other day driving from No. Cal area to San Diego I set up my phone on the holder and start around his Ford A vid forward (I'm just not really a big podcast guy). Close to 2 hours of listening. Anyway in the Weir Point episode, we've all heard how Weir started off towards the Point without permission from Reno. CA clearly and specifically states that the next 3 companies to arrive behind him (H, K, and M, I believe), also left without permission. This something I had missed? Didn't recall it. And I mean the without permission part. Reno at some point sent word to Weir to seek out Custer, right? Just a Custer Apollo theory?
|
|
|
Post by miker on Mar 14, 2023 1:53:14 GMT
After some thought on this, Reno was probably right in not sending a single company to see what's up. I don't believe he had consolidated and reorganized after the union with Benteen. That said I think he should have sent a detachment led by Varnum and select troopers with any Indian Scouts that were still there. You want to make contact with the enemy with the smallest force, in this case perhaps 1 or 2 sets of fours.
On the other hand it is not wrong to go towards the sound of the guns, but once Benteen got there he quickly determined it was the wring place to fight Indians.
And had not Godfrey not conducted a fine rear guard/delay action, things might have gone very wrong.
Then the headline would have been "7th Cavalry Regiment Destroyed! Terry Arrives Too Late!" and not "Reno/Benteen save the 7th Cavalry! Custer and 5 Companies Killed to the Last Man!"
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Mar 14, 2023 2:19:15 GMT
Frankly to the both of you, and anyone else that by now thinks I am stark raving crazy. I cannot find a single incident where I can fault either Reno's or Benteen's judgment during the entire battle. Execution of that judgment was a little rough around the edges, but not the judgment itself. Personally I would have shot Weir on the spot for the stunt he pulled.
Just watched "12 O'clock High" again last night, and there is a scene about a third of the way into the movie where Peck upbraids a Captain (pilot) for pulling his plane out of formation in order to cover (save) another B17 that has been damaged. Peck gets on this poor bastards case for violation of group integrity to save a friend. As it turns out the other guy could not be saved, but the Captain tried. Actually, the incident was very similar to what Weir did. Now you might say Chuckie Boy it was a movie, Hollywood. Yes, but that movie has been used for leadership lessons at West Point for 73 years and counting Big Boy, so what's your frigging point.
I agree with Mike, the proper thing to do is use a much often heard order in the United States Cavalry --- "Scouts Out" meaning GET OUT, FIND OUT, TELL ME.
On a related issue, I received a map in the mail today scale 1:12, 500 (its a big mother) from some broke dick cavalryman, attempting to curry my favor so I will again take him to the Broadmoor, next time he is in town. He shall remain anonymous, but his name starts with M. I have done little else since receiving it but pour over it in detail, and fill out my state income tax form. My map recon using this spiffy new play toy is to say Fred Wagner is all wet. Bench Mark 3411 means nothing except height above sea level. It was Weir where someone(s) in the valley saw the someone believed by many to be Custer. That is Bench Mark 3413. It's the angle of the dangle boys and girls, and I never saw it until I got this map which is huge.
|
|
|
Post by miker on Mar 14, 2023 3:11:23 GMT
I think Benteen made an error by not having his company dig in after the return from Weir Point. Digging in was a real bitch without any pioneer tools.
I am not sure Reno deliberately made a decision to break out or he just somehow lucked into it. I tend to think it was a good decision as it would have been difficult to defend the timber, but he would have been in a better position for water.
His decision to disregard Terry's orders was the right one. The purpose of reconnaissance is to find the enemy. The objective serves to orient you. If you find the enemy before you get to the objective, you win. If you get to the objective and don't find the enemy, you keep going till you do.
Sheridan, Terry, and Custer all made a mistake by attempting grandiose concentric turning movements in a theater which was much too large with too few troops. they could not support each other.
On the other hand Nate Green pretty much did the same thing before Cowpens. But he was lucky, his enemy did the same thing, and Morgan was smarter, tougher, and better understood his enemy. It was brilliant in the end, but after the win, he quickly - and I mean VERY QUICKLY - withdrew and reunited with Green before the enemy could recover and cut him off.
March Divided, Fight United is another truism, but it is difficult to do without good communications, as Napoleon found out at Waterloo.
Gettysburg is another interesting fight, made possible by another smart, tough cavalryman who understood his enemy and the ground. Lee should have learned from his daddy and George Washington who understood the value of winning by losing his way to victory. (Incidentally Washington's cousin commanded the cavalry at Cowpens. Light Horse Harry was otherwise engaged.)
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Mar 14, 2023 3:23:48 GMT
Sheridan, Terry, and Custer made their bones fighting confederates. Fighting confederates is a long way from fighting Commanche, Cheyenne, Sioux, and Apache. The confederates were a bunch of choir boys next to people who really knew how to fight on the western plains and deserts. Choir boys in pink pants.
|
|
|
Post by yanmacca on Mar 14, 2023 8:08:38 GMT
Looking over events from the time Reno reached his hill, I would say that Reno took himself out of this battle, because you have just got to flick through the events there after to find that took no part in any offensive actions.
I wouldn't judge him over this, he could have been suffering from a lot of battle related mental conditions. But what was the difference Weir trotting off and Reno obsconding, at least Weir had an agenda which was reckless to say the least, Reno left his whole command to take time to recover some personal items from a dead body.
Benteen was the battle commander from then on and up to the point of joining Reno he and his battalion had not fired a shot. The stand out officers from the valley and beyod are Benteen, Godfrey, Varnum and Hare maybe add French to that list too.
Ian
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Mar 14, 2023 18:02:47 GMT
The difference Ian is Reno was the commander and he can do anything, as a commander, he damned well pleases. Weir was not. Reno may suffer criticism for his actions, be they deemed inappropriate. That is everyone's right to do. But please remember that a commander calls his own tune during the dance, and only pays the piper, if someone thinks that tune played badly, after the fact. In other words when you play Mozart with a violin, someone is bound to call the damned thing a fiddle.
I have no idea what those items were, or their importance, do you?
To your list I would also add Calhoun. What artifacts we have suggest he did a better than average job as well.
|
|
|
Post by yanmacca on Mar 14, 2023 20:11:36 GMT
I know he is the commanding officer QC, but he is responsible for the remainder of his battalion and the rest of the regiment, am I right saying the rest of the regiment because he is the only Major on that hill.
He took a soldier (or soldiers) with him and searched the river for a body for his own agenda, nothing at all to aid his remaining men. Benteen should have protested about this and asked him to stay and work with him to restore order and plan the next move.
I have read various accounts on why Reno wanted to find the body, some say it was for a letter, some say it was a ring or watch, but Sgt Culbertson says this; I told an officer that he had seen Hodgson hit near the river, the officer called Reno. Reno said he wanted to go for water and would Culbertson be able to find where Hodgson was if he came with him. Eventually a dozen or so soldiers go with Reno to the river.
So lets put ourselves in their shoes, is Hodgson wounded or dead? If Reno sent a small detail, then why did he have to go along too.
Weir took a soldier with him and went to find Custer, if Weir was stopped and managed to get back to the hill, at least he could say that the route ahead was blocked and that it would be very dangerous to attempt to move north, that info would aid the remains of the regiment on Reno Hill.
I think what made the Weir move worse was 2nd Lieutenant Edgerly following him D Company, which I guess was not a part of Weirs plan.
The two instances do share a common theme but Reno acting irresponsibly and getting a free ride because he is a Major compared with a Captain is wrong especially as the Major has seven companies and a pack train to oversee.
Reno’s other big gaff was moving north with everything under his command, dragging wounded along to no planned destination in 100 degree heat is just crazy, how long was he going carry these men, the phrase how long is a ball of string comes to mind.
Reno hill should have been made secure, water brought up while the river was clear and a garrison force left. This could have been done and a sizable force if needed could be still sent north.
I single out Varnum and Hare because these two officers rode all over the place in a combat zone, not only scouting but delivering orders, so they are the bravest of the brave in my book.
Well, concerning Calhoun, it reminds be of the last D Day survivor Wally Patch being told he was a hero, Wally who was over a 100 turned and said, I aint no hero, the heroes are the men who died that day, my friends who never got to do what I have done. So to me there were plenty of soldiers who could have done brave things that day, Calhoun leading his company to the end means he could be amongst the many.
Ian
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Mar 14, 2023 21:00:58 GMT
You are correct. I am not saying I condemn or condone what he did. I do not know enough about what was in those papers he retrieved to render judgment. No one else does either I suspect.
The point is though that he is the commander. Commanders must be left to rise and fall based on what they do or fail to do. Weir was Reno's subordinate, he had no right to do what he did, risking himself or ultimately his company, for what apparently was a selfish reason. Unit integrity is the operative issue here.
OK Ian, when you are in command, you have my permission to leave the wounded behind and suffer the consequences. Moving north was something he needed to do. He should have had more information before he did it, but he needed to go north. Had Reno sat on his butt and done nothing, his name would not even be spoken in the hottest corner of Hell. Even those inhabitants would be ashamed of him.
So by leaving a garrison on Reno Hill and proceeding north with a "sizable force" you then I presume are an advocate of dividing your force in the face of the enemy. Another fellow tried that same trick. His name was George Custer. Ask him how well that turned out for him.
Varnum and Hare rendered splendid service.
The artifacts suggest that Calhoun did everything by the book in a tactically sound manner. I rate him the best of the five, but to tell the truth I do not, nor cannot know for sure with only artifacts to go on.
|
|
|
Post by yanmacca on Mar 14, 2023 22:46:20 GMT
Well I did say sizable force if needed, not my judgement at all, that would have been down to the officers on the field.
You know me well enough to to know that the regiment should have stayed together, so I am not straying into that minefield, you can give me credit for that.
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Mar 14, 2023 23:02:29 GMT
The bottom line Ian is that Reno had no good choices. Personally, I would have sent my scouts out to find Custer. That too is under the umbrella of "moving north". What I would never do is divide my force under those prevailing circumstances. The scouts report would have taken Reno off the hook, and he could then justify not moving at all, keeping the wounded secure, able to access water, and dig in as much as his absence of tools allowed, on the only decent (not saying good, great, or excellent) terrain available in the whole goddamned place. Figuring this crap out is hard work, and you must get it right the first time. There are no second chances.
Sorry if my answers are not more in depth. Been very busy putting together support packages for three funerals within the next ten days, and our 100th Anniversary at church this coming Sunday, not to mention helping my daughter select and obtain catering for Joan's memorial service on 15 April.
|
|
|
Post by miker on Mar 15, 2023 0:57:49 GMT
Three courses of action after Benteen and the trains link up with Reno.
1. Stay there and defend. 2. Send a reinforced battalion forward. 3. Stay there and defend, but send Reconnaissance to the North to see what's out. 4. Stay there and defend, but send reconnaissance back the way you came to find a better position.
Some Points. You are now in command. What do you think your mission is? Why? Reno has been defeated, but managed to extract his battalion. Rate its combat effectiveness. Is it capable of offensive action? How much time should you spend consolidating and reorganizing? Should you go north and look for Custer? What strength is "sizeable" What size force is needed to protect t the wounded? Should the wounded move with the battalion? Reno's battalion is down to perhaps 50% strength but will gain strength from the pack detail. Benteen's battalion will gain strength. Detail from the Pack escort can reinforce the stay behind battalion. What can 4-7 companies, with some stragglers and wounded do that five could not? Recognize we have additional knowledge. Who should command Reno's battalion? Who is the main effort? Who should command it? Are 3 plus companies enough to safeguard the wounded? Should the wounded be abandoned? We can be reasonably assured they will not be treated well. What size recon force will you send? What are their orders? A soldiers personnel viewpoint on who the heroes safe on D-Day or the breakout from encirclement of the 1st British Airborne has no bearing at all on the actions to be taken at the LBH.
Propose another course of action. What are the pros and cons of each course of action? Which one will you recommend? Justify your answer?
|
|