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Post by yanmacca on Jun 18, 2016 10:23:35 GMT
Good morning Mac, or should I say good evening. Regarding Custer viewing the village, apparently it was not unusual for him to go off and do his own thing, as one of his Crow scouts has mentioned about him riding off ahead in an effort to find a trail suitable to take wagons, and 1st sergeant Ryan and our old friend Kanipe have said that Custer and his chief trumpeter Voss had done some scouting and early on June 25th he went missing for two hours, so it seems that was how he like to do things as Custer and Fred Gerard were riding ahead of the column as Reno began his move up the valley. So these figures seen on the bluffs could have been Custer on one of his jaunts and his battalion could have been way over on the high ground to the east and still moving north. The most extravagant story of Custer riding solo came from Peter Thompson as he and Watson’s horse gave out, they made a course for the river and saw a Crow scout with a capture Sioux woman, she was tethered so she could not escape and Custer appeared and ordered the Crow to set her free, he then caught a glimpse of Thompson and Watson and beckoned them to follow him. Just getting some early lunch set up to watch the Australia v England rugby union match on TV, we won the first test and it looks like we won the second match too In fact we are on top of the world; England 2 Wales 1 (Euro 2016) England v Sri Lanka: Won 2 Drew 1 (Test Match Cricket)
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Post by yanmacca on Jun 18, 2016 11:08:03 GMT
The chances of Martini or Kanipe being with Custer if he viewed the village from the bluffs would be slim, I think Martini claimed that he was by the generals side all along, but strangely he can tell us jack shit about anything, now anyone who was riding in this HQ element must have been privy to any conversations that were going on between the three officers present, Martini was rubbing shoulders with these officers and really tells us nothing, its almost like the command was operation on silent running, unless old Martini was a dam liar.
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Post by quincannon on Jun 18, 2016 14:04:14 GMT
Well my granddaughter has been well and truly educated, matriculated, and graduated, and I probably had a better seat at 1700 miles away then my family did. Thus the magic of the internet.
There would be no reason for Martini, Kanipe, or Little Jack Horner to have been with Custer IF he went to the edge of the bluff. Again, IF he went, most probably he would have taken his chief scout, and his adjutant. These two make the most sense. The rest, were back in that column like Little Miss Muffet eating their curds and whay. Believe none of what you hear, and only half of what you see.
These stories are so engrained in our conscience thoughts, that they have become accepted fact. We continually refer to some event as happening, when we have no way of knowing that it happened. Every story we have has its genesis in someone coming to the fore for their fifteen minutes of fame and limelight. There is a picture of Thompson and Kanipe for instance on the battlefield as if they had some out of proportion importance. In truth had these two stuck to their duties, they would have been on the battlefield on a more permanent basis.
John W. Thomason remarked that you could always tell the phony and those in the rear with the gear at Confederate reunions by the ones who referred to their personal heroics at Sharpsburg, as being at Antietam. Very true.
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Post by yanmacca on Jun 18, 2016 15:32:21 GMT
Chuck, please give her my kindest regards and congrats! Looks like other have him going a different route;
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Post by quincannon on Jun 18, 2016 15:58:19 GMT
That seems a reasonable depiction for at least part of Custer.
As stated before, I think Custer may have split into a 2-3 configuration earlier than is generally accepted with the 3 going further east than what that picto-map shows.
Just tactical best practices speculation on my part, nothing more, based upon what I consider prudent in clearing all the nooks and crannies, from the Thomas' muffin that is the east side of that river, prior to even thinking about launching an assault.
When you walk into an ambuscade, and that terrain is made to order for one, it is too late to think about the woulda-coulda-shoulda, and only time to momentarily question if your affairs are in order.
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Post by yanmacca on Jun 18, 2016 16:57:55 GMT
I think that any split would just be in the initial phase and I don’t think that both columns would have lost LOS of each other, they would unite again on the ridge line, maybe were Cedar meets MTC. Another reason for this split (apart from ambushes and valley site seeing) would be that two columns may move faster than one, especially if the ridge line forces you to keep to a column of two’s.
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Post by quincannon on Jun 18, 2016 18:14:08 GMT
By that post you have conclusively proven that your study of tactics has progressed far beyond Fort Apache, She Wore a Yellow Ribbon, and They Died With Their Boots On.
Good for you.
Moving faster, WITH mutual security, which brings us back to how this thread started with Major Dade. Dade did serve a purpose though. Without him half of the place names in Florida would be Place X. Another Custer, made famous by doing everything wrong.
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Post by yanmacca on Jun 18, 2016 18:54:26 GMT
By that post you have conclusively proven that your study of tactics has progressed far beyond Fort Apache, She Wore a Yellow Ribbon, and They Died With Their Boots On. Yes and thanks, it is now up to the stage of "Custer of the West" Hurrah!!!!!!!
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Post by quincannon on Jun 18, 2016 20:57:49 GMT
They Died With Their Bots On, on its worst day is a hundred times better that Custer of the West on its best day.
You have progressed considerably further as evidenced by the fact that you are now not mentioning the maneuver itself, but the tactical reasons behind it. That takes some study, and the willingness to further define what happened, or didn't happen in the application phase. In other words you have progressed from field manual to real life application of principles.
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Jun 19, 2016 5:10:15 GMT
The map above shows Martini sent back much later than likely given the information Martini had on the route taken. Cedar is a possible route but only the west side makes any sense as a relatively clear passage and that means it is a relatively narrow passage along low ground with the tree choked bottom one side and the higher side ending at the drop off. This close to the village I am not sure how attractive that would be. The question was raised as to whether Wier followed Custer's trail. I think that unlikely as it is not mentioned (but Godfrey does mention a trail as Deadwood pointed out) and if he did, I cannot think he would end up at Weir point but would keep pushing on along the trail towards Custer. Happy to hear opinions on this. In short I am thinking if there was a split it was early and a route east of Sharpshooters involved, probably at least for the bigger group. Cheers
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Post by yanmacca on Jun 19, 2016 9:22:12 GMT
Mac, all Weir had to go on was the sound of gun fire, because he hadn’t a clue were Custer was or what route he had taken because he was part of Benteen’s battalion. So if he took off (apparently without even telling his second in command) then would he just ride north?
I suppose some clues may be found in where he ended up, Weir peaks were more to the west then the Custer route so maybe he took the option of riding with the river to his left and hugged the line of bluffs, this would allow him to view the valley, and with going along this route, he must have saw the advantage of heading to the peaks as these offered him the best observation point in the area.
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Post by yanmacca on Jun 19, 2016 9:23:14 GMT
I suppose that Custer was also keeping his options open. After he gave Reno a battalion of three companies, he may have also given Keogh a battalion of similar size. If you look at how he lined up at the Washita; Colonel Custer: A, C, D and K + 40 man Sharpshooter Company (more of this later) Major Elliott: G, H & M Captain Thompson: B & F Captain Myers: E & I
You will notice that two of the battalions only contained two companies, so if he did divide in the configuration of; Colonel Custer/Captain Yates: E & F + HQ Captain Keogh: C, I & L Major Reno: A, G & M
Then that still gave him the option of a three pronged attack structure, which could mean that his first plan was to allow Reno to hit through the valley, with himself and Keogh attacking at two different locations further north.
Now back to that Sharpshooter detachment, it was commanded by Lt. Cook and contained forty of the best shots in the regiment. At the Washita Custer’s detached ten of these men to operate as a bodyguard to the RHQ.
When I was digging around for this stuff I found this;
Sheridan ordered Custer to take command of the 7th cavalry because it was a newly formed unit and needed licking into shape, Custer was devoted to improving horsemanship and marksmanship of his men and within a few weeks had made this regiment an elite corps of 800 men.
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Post by quincannon on Jun 19, 2016 12:44:45 GMT
Please post a reference on this last Ian. It is then my intention to find every copy of it abroad in the known world, gather them together in one place and set fire to that perversion.
Trouble is people believe that crapola. Sounds like a Thom Hatch or Philip Katcher
The only piece of truth in that entire paragraph was "it was a newly formed unit" Now if it took a real leader like say a James Gavin a full year and a half to weld the 505th Parachute Infantry Regiment, all physically fit volunteers, who had been weeded out from the thousands that applied, who all spoke English, who had some degree of education, into a less than elite (at the time)unit, that would not fall apart at its first taste of combat, don't you think it would take the Wonder Boy of the West a titch longer, even if he had the desire and ability to do so, not to mention giving a shit about the whole matter?
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Post by yanmacca on Jun 19, 2016 12:58:52 GMT
I had to post it Chuck, it was from a book I saw online and I knew it would spoil a few Father's day celebrations. linkThis comes from page 20 of the book; The 7th Cavalry, spearhead of the campaign, was quickly whipped into shape by Colonel Custer. This recently formed unit was notably poor in morale when Sheridan called Custer to command it. Within a few weeks, devoted to improving the horsemanship and marksmanship of the troopers, Custer had made the 800-man command an elite corps.I must admit that you are correct and that it needs tossing into the waste paper bin.
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Post by quincannon on Jun 19, 2016 13:23:32 GMT
The truth is Ian that the newly formed Brownie Troop at the Pleasant Valley Church down the road from me has more of an elite status than the Seventh Cavalry ever had under Custer. At least they are all potty trained little girls who know how to place a marshmallow on the stick prior to toasting. They have not mastered the rubbing two sticks together to start a fire yet. That is on the training schedule after fighting Indians at the Washita, but they do know how to secretively pick their noses, and pull each others pigtails.
What some people dare to put into print defiles the human race.
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