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Post by yanmacca on Jun 17, 2016 14:24:13 GMT
Where I am trying to go with this Lieutenant Edgerly thing is that he left Reno hill with D Company, this was after he saw his company commander (Captain Weir) take off with his orderly. Now would Weir be on the lookout for Custer’s trial? Or would he simply ride north and hope to pick up the sounds of battle. Now if either Weir or Edgerly found Custer’s trail and followed it, not all the way but part off, and this took them east of sharpshooter ridge, then we then have an idea that Custer never went near the bluffs to seek out Reno in the valley.
But there is a but, and a very big but, and that was that troopers in the valley saw the grey horse troop on the bluffs, now this confuses everything, unless Custer’s column had divided earlier than expected, now if they did divide then we could have one column tracking Reno’s right, while another column took to the higher ground or even chased that large band on Indians that some claimed to saw near sharpshooter ridge.
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Post by quincannon on Jun 17, 2016 15:14:13 GMT
Probably. I did not see a manual number on it. It was a reprint for public sale so the cover was different, and I have no date either so it may not be the latest version. The content is consistent though. It is a small paperback edition. Very handy size. Lot of good graphics.
They also had the Counterinsurgency manual, which is worth a read, in light of recent discussions on the private thread, if for nothing else than to prove I don't make this crap up. Someone does but not me, and that someone writes doctrine for the Army and Marine Corps, as this is a joint USA/USMC Pub.
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Post by yanmacca on Jun 17, 2016 15:18:08 GMT
Chuck I don't want to be a smart ass but... link
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Post by quincannon on Jun 17, 2016 15:30:53 GMT
My guess is that were I Weir, I would conclude that I am on high ground (Reno Hill, the pathway along the bluffs keeps me on high ground, and that affords me better observation. I would not be concerned with a trail per say, but be only concerned with seeing what I could see up north. Edgerly on the other hand would most likely move off from where HE and Company D,were at the time and cut across (assuming he/they were over to the east) SSR and move in the same general direction (northward) as Weir but east of Weir's route.
If the trail of the five companies was much further east of the bluff edge (and I believe it was) that does not tell us that Custer did not view the valley fight. It tells us only that the five companies did not view it. Custer was free to move about as he pleased, and if it turns out that he did not go over there for a peek, he is an idiot. That is all it tells us. When the leader goes for a look-see, he takes only those he needs, not the whole damned circus.
I don't know this answer, but in all probability someone does. How many people in the Reno valley fight stated, shortly after the event (by this I mean days and hours, not years and decades), separately and apart say they saw Company E, and why, because they were supposed to be fighting the enemy to their front or at least concentrating in that direction, not sightseeing. I agree with Beth, that Company E crap smells more and more like the mirage story or Sandringham into the fog than fact.
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Post by quincannon on Jun 17, 2016 15:39:10 GMT
That's the Counterinsurgency Manual Ian, signed off by Leavenworth and Amos. Again the one at B&N was a paperback reprint for public sale, and much smaller in size.
I don't read that type stuff on line. Holding a book in my hot little hand gives me warm and fuzzies, where I can underline passages that I think relevant, make notes in the margins and spill coffee on it. Reminds me of the old days. The only thing missing is the sweat from my body as it sits in my pocket, the odd bits of mud, and a little spilled C Ration pork and beans on page 36.
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Post by yanmacca on Jun 17, 2016 15:39:52 GMT
Kanipe claimed he saw Reno’s men charging the village, so if he did see this then the whole of Custer’s battalion also saw it, Hmmmm…but is Kanipe a reliable witness?
"Reno and his men went at a swift gallop down Mud Creek across the Little Big Horn River and down the valley toward the south end of the Indian camp. General Custer followed the same route that Reno took, for a short distance, then turned squarely to the right charging up the bluffs on the banks of the Little Big Horn, where he saw a number of Indians...
"When we reached the top of the bluffs the Indians had disappeared, but we were in plain view of the Indian camps, which appeared to cover a space of about two miles wide and four miles long on the west side of the river. We were then charging at full speed.
"Reno and his troops were again seen to our left, moving at full speed down the valley. At sight of the Indian camps, the boys of our five troops began to cheer. Some of the horses became so excited that their riders were unable to hold them in ranks, and the last words I heard General Custer say were, `Hold your horses in, boys, there are plenty of them down there for us all.'
"Custer and his troops were within about one-half mile of the east side of the Indian camps when I received the following message from Captain Thomas Custer, brother of the General: -- 'Go to Captain McDougall. Tell him to bring pack train straight across the country. If any packs come loose, cut them and come on quick-a big Indian camp. If you see Captain Benteen, tell him to come quick-a big Indian camp.
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Post by quincannon on Jun 17, 2016 16:51:07 GMT
There are so many holes in that story that you could drive a truck through it.
Indian camp two miles wide, WTF. Get your map out, Use the scale at the bottom. Use as a start point the bluffs and go west for two miles. I think you end up in Oregon.
Indian camp four miles long, Double WTF - You can't bloody see that far due to terrain, unless Daniel Kanipe was an AKA for Clark Bloody Kent.
Custer charging. give me a break Danny Boy.
Just a whole lot of Hoo Ha meant for the women folk, the little kiddies, and some jackass like Whitacre
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Post by BrevetorCoffin on Jun 17, 2016 17:02:33 GMT
I am not sure what is trying to be learned here. I am sure that I must have missed something along the way. The most likely explanation is that D started out where they started from. We sometimes become mentally road bound. When Benteen arrived that battalion probably spread out in at least a 180 degree arc, and if D was off to the east in that arc, that is probably where they would set out from, and that would be over the eastern side of Sharpshooter Ridge then on northward. Read that last sentence of Ian's above. Where would Company D be one and a half miles north of Weir Point, at the time of Weir's recall. The answer is stone cold dead. SO that must mean that Company D moved a mile and a half north from some other place, and were contacted by Weir south of Weir Point, which is also consistent with this ongoing conversation. Mentally road bound: Our minds eye sees these people all in a column. Our subconscious sees a road. We put these two factors together often and derive erroneous conclusions. SIDEBAR: I was in Barnes and Noble yesterday and saw in the military history section a reprint army manual U S Army Tactics. Thumbed through it and was impressed with its content and ease of understanding of concepts even to the layman. I was tempted to purchase one for each of you and send them on. I didn't have half a grand on me at the time, so I passed on that Idea, but B&N carries the book. It is not real expensive, and well worth your effort. Anyone that want's more information let me know. I read the post as one-half miles, about 880 yards which makes far more sense.
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Post by quincannon on Jun 17, 2016 17:35:46 GMT
Saw that too, and concluded, not having read Scott, that the plural (miles) indicated a mile and a half, not half a mile.
That said a half mile north of Weir would put Edgerly very close to Ford B, which we can presume was in heavy use at the time, and I find it curious then that its use would be continued with a cavalry company on high ground overlooking the ford, and not have the users turn on that company. Quarter mile, I don't see any problem. Half is very suspect to me.
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Post by yanmacca on Jun 17, 2016 18:54:52 GMT
Yeah Kanipe is worse than Martini.
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Post by quincannon on Jun 17, 2016 20:22:00 GMT
That dear boy is a given.
Now what was it, a mile and a half or half a mile, as per the heated debate above between yours truly and the guy who has Estes Park withdrawal, coupled with how did she grow up so fast syndrome.
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Post by yanmacca on Jun 17, 2016 21:24:48 GMT
But what if we peel away the layers of exaggerated spiel and concentrate on a few key points, never mind about the wrong size of the village and Custer charging bit, and concentrate on if they could see both Reno and the village, because the part about the whole five companies getting an eye full of the brave ride up the valley by their comrades plus a few horses getting scared by the shouts of encouragement by Custer’s men just may have happened. And that’s all we are concentrating on here, did Custer and his command move over a piece of high terrain and see what Kanipe said they did.
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Post by quincannon on Jun 18, 2016 0:00:27 GMT
Ian: If I just told you that the moon is made of green cheese, Peter Pan is real and lives next door to me, Mother Goose is a personal friend of mine and everything he (MG is a transvestite) says is the God's honest truth, the Green Hornet was an anti-Asian racist, the South won the Civil War, the Boston Tea Party was nothing more than an early attempt in income redistribution, and John Dillinger, Machine Gun Kelly, and Baby Face Nelson were humanitarian activists, you just might have a teensy weensy bit of a hard time believing me when I say that William is second in line to the Throne of England.
When you lose credibility, you lose it all.
Geography alone, makes they guy a poo poo peddler.
Why would Custer expose five companies to being visible to the Indians in the valley? There is absolutely no evidence to support it. It is hard to explain to someone that has never been there, but if you are riding 100 meters east of the edge of the bluffs, you cannot see squat in that valley. The picture in the banner Steve provided was taken very close to the edge, and it shows you that there is a lot in that valley, close up to the bluff edge that is hidden from view. The Geometry is against you.
The Geometry is also against seeing Company E as well. Not impossible, but I rate it very unlikely. Angle of sight means something
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Post by BrevetorCoffin on Jun 18, 2016 5:41:30 GMT
That dear boy is a given. Now what was it, a mile and a half or half a mile, as per the heated debate above between yours truly and the guy who has Estes Park withdrawal, coupled with how did she grow up so fast syndrome. Guilty as charged.
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Jun 18, 2016 10:16:24 GMT
As QC says from the high ground you cannot see the valley unless you go right up to the edge. For this reason, one of the suggestions as to why Custer went near Ford B is to get a view of the end of the village. I struggle with why he would need to do that at Ford B, but the point is that viewed from the valley Custer could have all his men 100 metres back from the edge and you would not see them. So it is unlikely Kanipe saw anything at all. I fear he is, like others, trying to make himself central to the plot. Cheers
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