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Post by deadwoodgultch on Mar 29, 2016 23:49:36 GMT
Beth, 1 No emotional baggage here. 2 You will have to do more than warn me to cut off my freedom of speech, your call. Of course you can take down the posts, again your call.
Anger is not my calling card and I not Chuck's either.
Regards, Tom
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dave
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,679
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Post by dave on Mar 30, 2016 0:40:52 GMT
QC Which video were you referring to regarding the DIME strategy? Regards Dave
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Post by quincannon on Mar 30, 2016 0:57:27 GMT
Don't remember the title Dave, but the one Mac's link brings up will have several more down the right side of the screen, and it was the top most with the AWC sourcing. You see a suit preaching to the choir picture. It's about an hour long, and uses DIME as a tool, giving emphasis on the D-I-E to look at the ACW background, advantages and disadvantages to both side, the political environment and so forth. The theses or one of them anyway is the South could have won by hanging on, and eroding the will of the north. I think that very well might have come true, had Lincoln not found the right mix of people to run the M in DIME.
I believe Lincoln felt he would lose the election of 64 to McClellan, and that would be de-facto negotiations. That was all changed though by Grant in the east and to a slightly lesser extent by Sherman, the Grant surrogate in the west. Will and determination, either grow or erode, and from Summer 63 to Summer 64 that will and determination was circling the toilet bowl in Yankeeland, thanks to one party peddling expediency and not principle.
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Post by Beth on Mar 30, 2016 1:14:32 GMT
Tom, Freedom of speech is one of our cherished rights and I am sure our forefathers meant it more to allow someone to speak against government tyranny, unfair laws and to allow creative freedoms. Being told to move off a topic on a message board is not a violation of your freedom of speech.
This board is mainly a history related board specifically about the Sioux Wars but expanded to cover other conflicts because of mutual interests. It has never been meant to be a board to discuss current events or politics. I have been consistent across the board on asking that current events get no more than a passing mention. I have made it clear that once the conversation strays to far into areas, it's time to move on or shut it down.
As for your post. I admit I thought about taking it down because it is exactly the type of thing I dislike-a bit of modern revisionist history and like QC I would recommend a bit more reading about Jefferson, Barbary pirates, and Tripoli.
I left it though even though it goes against everything I want this board to be about because I know that I would be making a knee jerk reaction based on how Beth C feels and not as a board moderator. Ironically as Beth C, I couldn't respond the way I would really like because then Moderator would have to put me on a time out.
It may sound strange that I have to look at messages on this board with two 'mindsets' but often I have to judge conversations based both ways. I personally may not agree with someone's view of event in the valley but I don't go in to either edit historic quotes or remove post that question my knowledge. The moderator will however reserve the right to remove posts that are personal attacks, offensive or not keeping with the intent of the board.
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Post by Beth on Mar 30, 2016 1:25:27 GMT
QC unfortunately the list of related videos you see is also related to your own personal browsing history so the ones you say would be different from the ones Dave or I saw. I remember mine showed a number related to the War College but also had parrots saying cute things and cute puppies (I know how embarrassing to admit). Can you check your browsing history to see if you can find it?
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dave
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,679
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Post by dave on Mar 30, 2016 1:37:59 GMT
Beth and QC I honestly I believe the Confederacy never had a legitimate chance of independence. I have mulled this proposition over for many years buttressed by reading many general histories, unit histories, biographies, diaries and political activities and machinations. Not that I am an expert or even an accomplished historian but I have decided the closet comparison in today's world is the Mouvement souverainiste du Québec, or The Quebec sovereignty movement. I am speaking of a political movement that is doomed to failure as was the Confederacy in that surrounded by the Canadian nation is similar to the south coexisting with the Union.
The rebels from both movements had no plans or abilities to exist as separate nations and would have attempted to use the host's countries infrastructures as well as all other services. The south especially could not function as a nation due to the adherence of states rights.
I look forward to hearing other ideas and thoughts dealing with my heresies and suggestions of where I drifted from reality. Regards Dave
PS David good catch on Grant stopping the prisoner exchanges.
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Post by quincannon on Mar 30, 2016 2:53:01 GMT
The title of the video is USAWC expert presents - Gettysburg Strategic Leadership Brief.
Dave you are correct in what the aftermath of a southern victory would bring, a total cluster, hoisted upon their own sword of States Rights.
Never try to think of military strategy as a stand alone thing. It is not, and it cannot be. DIME the acronym is not a DIME strategy. DIME represents the four elements OF strategy. One part cannot exist without the other three.
Recall
Strategy is the purview of the national level of leadership. Military people at that level make their contribution which must fit in, mesh, with the other three elements.
Operations is the process of turning the military portion of national strategy into military goals and objectives and continues through theater area maneuver to near the point of contact.
Near the point of contact tactics takes over.
National strategy in broad brush stokes for LBH was to facilitate westward expansion (hell of a lot of strategic subsets contained therein). Operations was the planning for positioning of forces and finalization of the campaign plan, and executing the maneuver that would set up the tactical phase. Tactics starts where the protagonists enter the immediate battle space. Making it near to what we have been discussing recently. Operational Maneuver stopped early in the morning of 1 July 63, and tactics started about the time one of Buford's outposting troopers fired his first shot downrange.
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mac
Brigadier General
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Post by mac on Mar 30, 2016 11:51:37 GMT
I would like to put in my DIME, but I would like to look at the E. Disclaimer: I know much less than most here about the ACW so please educate me as needed. It seems to me that one reason for the ACW was the fact that the South were not prepared to change the structure of their economy in respect to the parity of rewards given to those working in their industries. I state it this way to make the point that the issue has a serious economic aspect rather than all the other things bound up in the slavery issue. In the 19th century they were already falling out of step with the rest of the world in this regard. Around this time we see the early start of mass travel and globalisation. In 1849 there were lots of people going to California (a relatively undeveloped place) chasing gold, some even from Australia. In 1851 the Australian gold rush began (a relative wilderness) and many 49ers came on to Australia. Miners even came from China for these events = global scale, global migration. Now through easy and fairly cheap transport and the internet, the globalisation of economies is proceeding very quickly. People are voting with their feet, when they can, as to which economy they want to live in. The solution is not building walls, which is at best a medieval solution that failed the test even then. The solution is to understand the need to allow and help all parts of the globe to develop to a point where there is no attraction to make people leave. This is not some commie, softie, idea but rather the sound practice of risk management. Uncontrolled migration is a massive risk, for lots of reasons, and the cheapest way to stop it is to remove the economic push/pull factors that cause it. If the North had offered to subsidise and aid change in the South would that not have been a far cheaper solution both in economic and human terms than the ACW? Cheers
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Mar 30, 2016 12:34:32 GMT
Mac, Excellent post, great background info. This thread has been all over the place. ACW, at the top, in the south it was about power, money, and status quo. For the rank and file it was sold to them as states rights. States rights is still an issue here, the fear of an overreaching federal government. But, as in current times it's about the money and control, here, middle east, Russia. Control the masses and live comfortably in your Dacha.
Regards, Tom
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Post by Beth on Mar 30, 2016 13:19:01 GMT
If the North had offered to subsidise and aid change in the South would that not have been a far cheaper solution both in economic and human terms than the ACW? Cheers Of course it would have worked better in theory but it was not an option on the table. I don't even think the thought of the government doing subsidies and aid existed at that time. Also the problem at the time would have been insurmountable without a total change in all aspects of Southern society. The south's economy was totally dependant on slave based agriculture. Without slave labor southern planters couldn't support their vast acres of some very labor intensive crops especially cotton. If they had to pay a wage for the number of farm workers required, they would not have been able to produce product at a low enough price to compete on the global market. England bought cotton from the US not because it was a superior produce but because it was cheaper than getting it from sources further away. If you took away the price advantage then England just had to turn to any of it's colonies like India or Egypt that capable of growing cotton and nurture those market. It pretty much the same sort of dynamics you see today with manufacturing being moved to areas that where labor is cheaper. The South had locked themselves into a no win situation and to change would have been a total upheaval of every single aspect of their society and at a ruinous cost. The southern economy was not diverse enough to take such a blow as the loss of it's agricultural based economy and it would have meant economic ruin for the area. It had practically no industry like the north because it hadn't developed hydropower to power industry, the large population centers for workers and the infrastructure of roads and rail needed to support industry. The South's attitude was 'we are doing fine, we don't need to change anything' and they were unable to see that with or without slavery they had allowed themselves to be trapped with a 17th and 18th century mentality in a quickly changing 19th century world.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Mar 30, 2016 13:19:14 GMT
Stuart, James Ewell Brown. Graduated West Point 1854(13/56)Served Mtd. Rifles-Cav. Indian fighting and in KS during border disturbances (seriously wounded). Joined Lee in Harpers Ferry as volunteer ADC, during John Brown's raid. Resigned 3 May '61 as Capt. went with the south. His father-in-law, Philip St. George Cooke(also VA born), remained with the Union, somewhat brother against brother. Stuart was originally commissioned as LT. Col. VA Infantry, later Captain of Capt. CSA Cav.
You know about Stuart's deeds during the war.
This thread was started to compare the style and make up compared to GAC. GAC, last in class, Stuart 13/46. Stuart better trained and tested prior to the ACW and learned to function at all levels of command.
Style and makeup. Stuart was called Beauty by WP classmates, he wore a flowing and massive beard, purportedly to cover a receding chin and to camouflage his youth. His personal bravery, endurance, panache, and high good humor made him a magnificent cavalry leader. Stuart's staff was considered excellent and he trained his subordinates with sober professionalism. Deeply religious, not unlike Jackson in his sincerity and piety. He also had a wide streak of vanity and exhibitionism in his make-up that contrasted with his other qualities. He was about5'9" tall, massive and nearly square.
Regards, Tom
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Post by yanmacca on Mar 30, 2016 13:24:08 GMT
With regard to what happened to the Christians killed in Pakistan the other day, killed by the Taliban, an equal number of Taliban Mullah's should be castrated. They then should be left for buzzard food, stuffed wit ground pork. Now I guess you would like to ask how I really feel! Tom, remind me never to "piss you off"
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Mar 30, 2016 13:38:48 GMT
Ian, Being pissed off is far better than being pissed on, unless you are into "Golden Showers"!
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Post by yanmacca on Mar 30, 2016 15:02:57 GMT
"shut the front door" I better get my umbrella out quick style!
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Post by quincannon on Mar 30, 2016 15:07:53 GMT
Mac and Beth: Excellent, absolutely excellent. That is strategic level thinking.
I hereby decree that JEB Stuart, by John W. Thomason LTC, USMC, The Poet Laureate of the Corps, shall be mandatory reading for all, under penalty of a session with TOM, thumbscrews and all. Seriously, when this thread started I got Thomason off of my ready ammunition bookshelf and read him cover to cover again for probably the twentieth time since I was thirteen and first picked up my dad's dog eared copy.
" And last night they were coming from the southeast, at Todd's Tavern. How many he did not know: those deserters mentioned Longstreet, thought to be a Suffolk. But Stonewall Jackson, certainly, and Jeb Stuart, certainly, and General Lee! There was a dangerous feel.... Jackson, Jackson, in the soft May air. Joe Hooker abandoned his offensive and started to cover up////// Their chief seemed a beaten man"
A man from the Old South writing in the style of the Old South, about the soldiers of the Old South. Dave would love it.
Tom I think Stuart went over to the cavalry as a LTC not CPT. I will check. What I know for sure is that he was and remained an LTC until the 1st Virginia finished its organization into a full regiment, that had started out as a battalion. Going to look at those places close to Deb's house that were significant in the ride around McClellan when I get back in June.
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