Stuart and Custer: Made from the same mold

[quincannon]

The story is correct in every respect, as verified by both Thomason and Hennessey.

There is one additional little tidbit though:

When Union forces were in Warrenton, some days before, a young Union officer had told, and obviously loyal Southern Filly that he was trying to impress that he would soon be in Richmond. A wager was proposed, the stakes a bottle of Champagne. One of the prisoners captured at Catlett's was this very officer, and as Stuart's column returned through Warrenton, the young lady paid off her wager. This young officer would indeed be in Richmond in short order.

Don't understand your obvious question Tom. Legitimate raid, well carried out and at extremely low risk given the disposition of Pope's forces at the time.

The incident at Verdiersville (which I consistently misspell and mispronounce) was the incident I eluded too a few days ago where Stuart's direction to Lee did not betray the urgency of the move, and Lee stopped in route to resupply, making him late in Stuart's eye. The two exchange frank views on the matter, and nothing was said regarding the matter thereafter.

The whole episode of the ford being left open for Union cavalry to cross, recon, and re-cross, did cause the relief of a brigade commander by Longstreet. Longstreet personal ordered that ford to be blocked, and the regiment charged to do so by Longstreet obeyed. When the regiment's brigade commander found out about it he countermanded the order, protocols and such, the regiment complied, so loss of order carried by Fitzhugh or not, that unblocked ford and the subsequent recon, gathered enough information itself to force R E Lee to call of the movement around Pope's left.

[deadwoodgultch]

Chuck,
There was really no question on my part, just trying to get back to Beth's basics on the thread.

[quincannon]

Question or not, I am glad you brought it up.

Stuart and Custer from a distance appear to be similar. Both liked flash. I know Stuart like his sport at someone's else's expense, he was constantly sticking pins in his good friend, the seemingly humorless Jackson. Custer from some reports was much the same.

Stuart though took few tactical or operational level risks, yet he at times freely roamed where angels fear to tread. His two major raids are well known, Chickahominy and Chambersburg. Lesser known are the one above at Catlett's, and the later Christmas 62 raid on Dumfries, plus a number of smaller incursions. He got himself surrounded by a good portion of the Union Army during the Bristoe Campaign of late 63. On that latter occasion he lay dormant, doing nothing until the crisis past, and they never knew he was there.

All of his raiding operations were well planned, he never overreached, never engaged for the sake of engagement alone, and ALWAYS brought back the information that was the overarching purpose of the raid. Closest he ever came to being caught, was at White's (still and operational ferry) on the Potomac. He took risks, but never one uncalculated, and I never have seen evidence of a rash act, during one of these excursions.

He was not immune to the bone headed move though, and occasionally let having a good time interfere with the correct performance of duty. One such, is moving up the Little River Turnpike on 31 August 62, covering Jackson's move around Pope. He came up on some high ground just east of where Interstate 66 crosses US50 (then the LRT), detected Pope's trains on US 29 (then the Warrenton Turnpike), brought up a gun from the SHA and cut loose. Might as well have implanted a neon sign for the Federals saying - You are flanked Bubba. Then to compound his error, he does not report to Jackson what he sees, instead beds Fitz Lee's brigade down, where Navy School now stands (about three miles away) and goes off to Frying Pan Church to spark some honey. Dumbest thing I ever heard him do, but he did.

[deadwoodgultch]

A dalliance, say it's no so, from this righteous cavalier!

[deadwoodgultch]

Military family roots grow deep.

CAPTAIN J. E. B. STUART
FUNERAL TO BE HELD AT ARLINGTON
FOR SON OF CONFEDERATE GENERAL
A military funeral for Captain James E. B. Stuart, who died on Wednesday at Istolpoga, Florida, will be held on Sunday or Monday in the National Cemetery at Arlington, Virginia.

Captain Stuart, who was a son of the famous Confederate cavalry General, “Jeb” Stuart, is survived by a widow, who lives with a daughter, Mrs. G. M. Garmany of Port Washington, Long Island; three other daughters and a son. J. E. B. Stuart, Jr. of Manhasset, Long Island.

Captain Stuart was born seventy years ago at Fort Riley Kansas, where his father was a First Lieutenant in the United States Army. He received an engineer’s training at Virginia Military Institute, but later became a banker in Virginia. In the war with Spain he won his rank of Captain.

President Roosevelt appointed him Collector of Customs at Newport News, Virginia. In the World War, he served in France in the Supply Department as a civilian. Since retirement from business in 1927, he had lived at Long Beach, Long Island.

[quincannon]

A dalliance? No don't think so. Never read, or have ever seen anything that was even suggestive that he was anything but loyal to Flora. The letters exchanged between them on the loss of their son, betrays their true feeling for each other.

Stuart loved to be admired. A typical excursion like the one to Frying Pan, would be several members of his staff, Sweeney his picker, perhaps a few others. There would be the obligatory serenade in the moonlight, a little light refreshment, perhaps a charade or two, snipping of a lock or two of hair, then back to the outposts. It was an exercise in Stuart feel good.

[rebcav]

Mar 21, 2016 0:21:24 GMT dave said:

Stuart and Custer enjoyed the Glory and pomp of war and the opportunity to strike blades. Forrest was a killer who waged war to kill and win not play the bold cavalier. Nathan was frugal with men and used many tactics to win with as little loss as possible. 

The Western war was often overlooked because of distance, less populated cities and lack of press coverage and generals like Forrest and Claiborne were often overlooked. Forrest was the only force in the Western Theater that Sherman feared and did his best to eliminate Forrest and his command.
Regards
Dave

          "We must catch that Devil Forrest if it costs 10,000 lives and bankrupts the Treasury."
            Lieutenant General William Tecumseh Sherman(USA)
         
            I guess you could say that Lieutenant General Nathan Bedford Forrest(CSA) aggravated that Northern Gentleman just a tad.
        
            Respectfully Submitted, 
            Duane

[deadwoodgultch]

An interesting sidebar story. On 14 June 63 Forrest received a near fatal pistol wound by a disgruntled subordinate officer(Lt. A. Willis Gould)at Columbia Tn.. After the wounding Forrest held this officers pistol hand, used his teeth to open his penknife and with his free hand inflicted a mortal wound to his assailant. One bad MF, I would say.

[dave]

When Forrest chose to raise his own regiment of cavalry in June of 1861 he used the following to encourage enlistment:

“I wish none but those who desire to be actively engaged. COME ON BOYS, IF YOU WANT A HEAP OF FUN AND TO KILL SOME YANKEES”

Rather a deadly serious man who fought to win.
Regards
Dave

[quincannon]

Forrest is a man that should be know to history for his tactical and operational talent alone. The rest of him was completely distasteful, and if the quote Dave just posted about killing being fun is true, he was also a mentally unbalanced moron.

I much prefer that those I admire for their tactical skill, be also men I can admire as men. Forrest is not one of them.

[dave]

Forrest was a complex man and far better in defeat than many were in victory. The excerpt below was from the same man who advertised "Killing Yankees" this came from his farewell address to his men after surrendering as soon as he heard of Lee's capitulation.
Regards
Dave

"Civil war, such as you have just passed through naturally engenders feelings of animosity, hatred, and revenge. It is our duty to divest ourselves of all such feelings; and as far as it is in our power to do so, to cultivate friendly feelings towards those with whom we have so long contended, and heretofore so widely, but honestly, differed. Neighborhood feuds, personal animosities, and private differences should be blotted out; and, when you return home, a manly, straightforward course of conduct will secure the respect of your enemies. Whatever your responsibilities may be to Government, to society, or to individuals meet them like men.Civil war, such as you have just passed through naturally engenders feelings of animosity, hatred, and revenge. It is our duty to divest ourselves of all such feelings; and as far as it is in our power to do so, to cultivate friendly feelings towards those with whom we have so long contended, and heretofore so widely, but honestly, differed. Neighborhood feuds, personal animosities, and private differences should be blotted out; and, when you return home, a manly, straightforward course of conduct will secure the respect of your enemies. Whatever your responsibilities may be to Government, to society, or to individuals meet them like men.
The attempt made to establish a separate and independent Confederation has failed; but the consciousness of having done your duty faithfully, and to the end, will, in some measure, repay for the hardships you have undergone. In bidding you farewell, rest assured that you carry with you my best wishes for your future welfare and happiness. Without, in any way, referring to the merits of the Cause in which we have been engaged, your courage and determination, as exhibited on many hard-fought fields, has elicited the respect and admiration of friend and foe. And I now cheerfully and gratefully acknowledge my indebtedness to the officers and men of my command whose zeal, fidelity and unflinching bravery have been the great source of my past success in arms.



I have never, on the field of battle, sent you where I was unwilling to go myself; nor would I now advise you to a course which I felt myself unwilling to pursue. You have been good soldiers, you can be good citizens. Obey the laws, preserve your honor, and the Government to which you have surrendered can afford to be, and will be, magnanimous.

— N.B. Forrest, Lieut.-General

Headquarters, Forrest's Cavalry Corps

Gainesville, Alabama

May 9, 1865[47]

[quincannon]

On the surface the two statements do not seem to compute.

The point is that with the first statement he was instilling hate for his adversary. That is a fundamental mistake, not for moral reasons although they are there as well, but simply that hate, having fun killing, leads to the error of disrespect, and underestimation of your adversary, which is the genesis of being defeated by them.

As the two statements were separated by four years of war perhaps Nathan traveled down the Damascus Road of enlightenment and military redemption.

[dave]

QC
If I am not mistaken, the Civil War* was the first so called modern war with the advent of the rifled musket, minnie ball and improved artillery pieces and rounds. Killing was no longer just a side bar to warfare as it had been before and war was no longer glory and a chance for fame and honor. With over 700,000 deaths the true horror of war struck the entire nation and the silly slogans faded away quickly.

Forrest was above all a practical man who made the best of the circumstances he was in prior to, during and after the war. Everyone had enough of war and killing and only wanted peace and security.
Regards
Dave
* just for you QC

[quincannon]

Dave: Nathan Bedford Forrest was an operational and tactical genius, and as I said earlier in this thread, is one of the top three American horse soldiers of all time in my opinion.

He was also: A slave trader. Strike One. A founding member of the KKK. Strike Two. Was responsible for the murder of 500 or more Union prisoners of war at Fort Pillow. Opinions differ on if he ordered or participated in this, but the fact remains that they were his troops that murdered these prisoners, and he as the commander is responsible. We hung Japanese and German officers for the same thing following World War II. Strike Three.

The words distasteful, and mentally unbalanced moron stand. Why do you think the American Army places so much emphasis on honesty and integrity, along with having rigid standards of conduct?

The American Civil War was the first modern war for three reasons, none of which had anything to do with firepower.

1) The telegraph.

2) The Railroads.

3) Adoption of a policy of total war, a formalized recognition that the means of war, were just as important as the men and method.

[dave]

QC
I agree that Forrest was probably a distasteful individual and must be judged according to his times and societal norms. He was born and raised in a rural area of Tennessee and grew up rough and tough. He made his fortune in a most disgusting manner as we judge today but in his society slavery was accepted and promoted.

I make no apologies for the man as his actions; Fort Pillow, the establishment of the KKK and other brutal deeds he took will be accounted for when he faces his Maker. Meanwhile we as individuals read, study and judge his tactics, strategies and behavior in light of today's values far removed from battle and values of mid 18th century America.

I pointed out the War was far more deadly than any other conflict on this continent and displayed the true horrors of warfare to both Confederate and Union soldiers. The reasons you listed as the causes for this war to be considered modern were not appreciated by the individual soldiers as dangerous as the ones I listed. To the grunt on the ground the lead flying overhead was far more deadly than the telegraph and the others.

Men like Forrest are always with us but many are never judged if they are on the winning side. Mush Morton for example would have been culpable for war crimes if he had not been protected by Lockwood and others. You know far more than I do about other sins created by Americans in wars than I do none of which justifies the actions taken at Fort Pillow.
Regards
Dave