dave
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Post by dave on Mar 23, 2016 16:36:24 GMT
Agree but wanted to be fair to GAC he had courage but was not a man of vision. Custer was best when wound up and pointed in the right direction. Only 1 task at a time, when completed move to next one. Regards Dave
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Post by Beth on Mar 23, 2016 19:37:52 GMT
Leaders are expected to have courage Dave. leaders are also expected to do what is necessary, when it is necessary. I do not believe I have ever said that I did not think Custer courageous, but in judging the ability of a leader, you must look at the whole man. In this instance a look at the whole man tells me that Custer was not fit enough to hold Forrest's horse, or fit enough to play Sweeny's banjo. People always talk about how courageous Custer was but I tend to think of him as more foolhardy. His courage was the type that got men killed needlessly. I suspect a good leader is able to balance courage with control as will as other attributes like situational awareness and common sense.
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dave
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Post by dave on Mar 23, 2016 20:08:52 GMT
Beth I believe Forrest and Stuart were brave and courageous and Custer was foolhardy. Just a thought from one who is neither. Regards Dave
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Post by quincannon on Mar 23, 2016 20:58:08 GMT
Bravery does not mean that you have the sense to come in out of the rain. Only the sense to come in out of the rain is important first, then hope you are brave enough to do what that common sense tells you must be done.
There is no prize for being the bravest man in the grave yard, but there is a prize for having the common sense to evaluate the situation and being courageous enough, both physically and morally, to carry out what is necessary, and that prize more times than not is victory.
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Post by quincannon on Mar 23, 2016 22:09:04 GMT
It should also be noted that courage is not a constant. Courage must be summoned from the dormant on each occasion that courage is called for.
About all that can be said for a man that is courageous without thought, is that he is impulsive. Such men are to be avoided.
Courage honestly and usefully displayed is a product of thought and evaluation at some level. Mitchell Red Cloud had courage, the right kind. Continuing the charge of the Union Brigade at Waterloo, after the limited objectives of that charge were reached is the wrong kind.
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mac
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Post by mac on Mar 23, 2016 23:46:55 GMT
We have been discussing how Stuart and Forrest were superior to Custer in tactics and leadership but to give GAC his due I offer the Battle of Fallen Timbers. Custer would have matched Forrest's bravery on April 8, 1862. Forrest was commanding the rear guard of the Confederate army as it retreated from Shiloh to Corinth, Mississippi. General Sherman lead the Federal advance and Forrest and his command charged the Union troops to protect a Confederate hospital. Forrest's bravery and rash behavior was certainly reminiscent of Custer. I high recommend you look into this conflict and you will see the comparison I mentioned between Forrest and Custer. Regards Dave Unfortunately you have stimulated some interest in the ACW in me and coincidentally my first foray was a documentary on archaeology at Shiloh. I was struck by some similarities to LBH in that the terrain and the lack of intelligence with regard to the terrain were critical as was the internal lines of the Union forces. Also the nutrition and tiredness of the Confederates as the battle wore on was reminiscent of LBH to me. The final part was the archaeology suggesting that the "hornets nest" was not at all critical and its importance has been exaggerated after the action. Interesting! Never heard of Mitchell Red Cloud before...wow! Cheers
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dave
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Post by dave on Mar 24, 2016 0:30:14 GMT
Stuart and Custer faced off at the Battle at Rummel Farm also known as East Cavalry Field outside of Gettysburg on July 3, 1863 in perhaps the most famous cavalry battle of the War. Stuart disparately wanted to atone for his mistake of failing to keep Lee advised of the Army of Potomac's movements from Northern Virginia. And then came Custer!
Though he was outnumbered, Custer lead two charges that blunted Stuart's efforts to gain access to the Federal's rear. I believe the rest of his career was on the downhill after Gettysburg. He gained the fame with the famous "Come on, you Wolverines!" shout prior to the charges.
Custer was not in the same category of cavalry leader as John Buford who despised the glory hunters and if he had not died in December from Typhoid fever could have changed the course of Custer's career. Ironically Myles Keogh was with Buford as he passed. Regards Dave
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Post by quincannon on Mar 24, 2016 3:29:03 GMT
As a young man, very young and hardly a man I might add, I trained on Red cloud Range at Fort Benning. Most ranges at Benning are named after men who made their mark. It was Red Cloud, the name, that intrigued me, so I went to the I School library and looked him up. He has been one of my personal heroes since.
Agree about Buford, and the impact his early death had Dave.
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dave
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Post by dave on Mar 24, 2016 3:48:08 GMT
Mac
The terrain is everything at Shiloh. The many little creeks and streams---Owl, Lick, Snake, Lick, Dill Branch, Shiloh Branch, Winningham Branch and the Tennessee River---had a significant effect on the tactics and winning the battle. Believe it or not lack of water was a factor at Shiloh and causd problems from dry mouth and incredible thirst from hot tempratures to black powder in mouths after biting the end of the paper ball cover and the wounded in shock needing water. Regards Dave
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mac
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Post by mac on Mar 24, 2016 9:40:48 GMT
My understanding is that the Confederate plan called for a swift movement through that terrain Dave and that that was never going to happen especially after it had rained. I often think Custer initially (when he left the valley route) thought he could make a swift move through the terrain east of the river at LBH. Cheers
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dave
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Post by dave on Mar 24, 2016 16:27:55 GMT
Mac Spring rains in Western Tennessee a can be massive. For example I have had over 9" of rain this month alone and I am 90 miles from Shiloh. The heavy rains made it nearly impossible to move an army of 40,000 and all its accoutrements through muddy roads. Beauregard's plan of attack too complicated and impossible to follow in the miserable conditions and arrangement of the various Corps. Johnston was provided with incorrect information as to the alignment of Grant's army. The Confederates believed the Federals were facing west when the were basically on an east west line. Consequently the Rebels were attempting to drive the Union army away from Pittsburg Landing but in reality forcing them back to the landing. A royal foul up that only got worse with Johnston's death.
I have no doubt that Custer believed he could circle around the Indian villages but because of a lack of scouting he did not know the size and shape of the villages. Custer had always made decisions on the fly and continued that day in June. He, along with all army officers, knew the hostiles would just flee when he appeared at the northern end of their villages. Alas the whites were wrong and the Indians stayed to protect their "hearths". Regards Dave
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Post by quincannon on Mar 24, 2016 17:06:14 GMT
Wishing is a rather poor basis for the selection of tactics. Knowing is much better.
Only Superman can leap off of tall buildings without looking, and have a reasonable expectation of flying.
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mac
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Post by mac on Mar 28, 2016 10:42:57 GMT
Found this about Gettysburg and the reason why Lee had the cavalry arrangement there. Again the importance of recon. www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrXxz4iniRsHope you find it interesting. I did! Cheers
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Post by quincannon on Mar 28, 2016 14:05:18 GMT
Simply outstanding find Mac.
Couple of things;
The presenter did not mention one vital fact about Stuart's ride. When those three brigades with Stuart arrived at Salem, Virginia (now Marshall), which was on or near their LD (Line of Departure) Union troops moving on a northerly axis through Haymarket, across the 2nd Manassas battlefield, then on through Centreville, to Fairfax, and ultimately the Potomac crossings blocked Stuart's line of advance for some considerable time, adding at least a day to the ride. I personally think that is more important than the wagon train capture at Rockville, Maryland.
Not only was Stuart blocked, but the axis of Union forces as they marched northward caused Stuart to swing further eastward, again adding time.
We also see, and it was well pointed out, the rust on the command climate, which was bad, but not nearly as bad as it was in 7CAV. Jones was a first class peckerwood, BUT, while they disliked each other intensely, both respected the abilities of one another. You only need to read Jones' statement on learning of the death of Stuart to verify this. As a sidebar here, Mosby was once one of Jones' officers, in I think the 7VACAV.
Robertson was a worthless sack of crap with no redeeming value.
Now damn you, thanks to your mighty effort Mac, I will spend the entire day watching War College presentations, and get absolutely nothing done around this house. Is the Madam going to be pissed.
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dave
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Post by dave on Mar 28, 2016 16:04:16 GMT
Mac Great find! Very interesting video as I love hearing various interpretations about Stuart's actions during the Gettysburg campaign. I am sure Lee,Stuart and the others would be amazed as to how much study and investigation of their decisions and actions would occur 153 years later.
Agree with QC as to the significance of the captured wagon train as Lee felt it was an impairment and wanted Stuart's presence more than anything else. It was Longstreet who made the comment "I never like to go into battle with one boot off." about attacking the Round Tops without Pickett's division but Lee would have felt the same emotions when Stuart was missing on days 1 and 2. Lee was blind and staggering in the dark when Stuart was absent. What difference if any in the outcome of the battle if Stuart and his horsemen had been with Lee on July 1 will never be known. Regards Dave
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