azranger
Brigadier General
Ranger
Posts: 1,824
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Post by azranger on Mar 14, 2016 11:37:07 GMT
The idea of being a hussar drives him. That is Clair's drive also but he served and he is not like the other.
I can not understand wanting to do something and never doing it if there is nothing to stop you from doing it.
Regards
AZ Ranger
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,800
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Post by mac on Mar 14, 2016 11:57:45 GMT
There is a north south part of the battle I would like to discuss. That is when Custer retires (retreats ?) from Ford D area. There is no archaeology published for this area that I am aware of. Let me pose a theory. Custer takes a couple of casualties here. We have evidence for two markers being near the trading post and also some feel Smith was wounded here. As Custer moves away Kellogg is lost. The indians persue. Remebering the warrior tactic is to work in groups forming a half moon structure, to seek the flanks of the enemy, and to try to isolate elements of the enemy. Custer moves up to Cemetery Ridge and halts, perhaps to treat Smith. E forms a skirmish line to hold back the indian advance. The warriors begin moving to infiltrate around the cavalry and the E line. Custer sees warriors exiting the Deep Ravine head cutting and crossing Battle Ridge. Company F go down to fire on these warriors and Custer and HQ go higher up the ridge. Company F take at least one casualty. The suicide boys use the new tactic of the suicidal charge and bring the E line to hand to hand. The Company E line breaks. There were once markers on Cemetery. Company F has re mounted and moved up to join Custer and HQ at LSH. Company E are isolated by the warriors manouvre and are forced to run to the ravine where they ultimately die. The final move of Company E to the ravine is often viewed as a breakout but why break towards the village? More likely to me that for some observers they simply appeared to come down from LSH and so looked like a breakout. Other accounts say there was no breakout. This explains why the ravine were only Company E and matches the tactical intent of the warriors to isolate elements. Cheers
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colt45
First Lieutenant
Posts: 440
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Post by colt45 on Mar 14, 2016 13:45:50 GMT
Good theory for explaining how E company wound up where they did, Mac. I think it highly likely that E fleeing from cemetery ridge is what caused the SSL and deep ravine markers as opposed to fleeing from LSH. The distance from LSH to the ravine is quite a way for someone running on foot to go and not get cut down by all the hostiles in that area. Cemetery ridge to DR is not as long a distance and one could most likely be able to flee across that area before getting caught in the DR area.
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Post by quincannon on Mar 14, 2016 15:38:43 GMT
Excellent.
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Post by yanmacca on Mar 14, 2016 19:21:43 GMT
Good work Mac, I think that the Indians moved in an arc around the back of battle ridge and this would effectively trap the soldiers on cemetery ridge, this move would be obscured from Custer’s position. I would suggest that once they saw that they were blocked on three sides, they deployed to resist. Once this resistance was broken (thanks to the suicide boys), they withdrew back to the ridge line (LSH), with the idea of escaping east, and I would expect that they got the shock of their lives when they crested the ridge, and found that the area full of warriors.
There are 49 markers along the south skirmish line and I think that around 36 are genuine and I think that Dr. Lord and Mitch Bouyer are included with that number, which would either mean that the HQ was under heavy attack as they moved up to LSH, or there was a some kinds of breakout.
Yan.
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Post by quincannon on Mar 14, 2016 20:00:09 GMT
Imagine a giant hand spreading out fingers fully extended eastward over that terrain from south of MTC Ford to the Trading Post (Home of the Death Burger) in the north. Each of those fingers are feeling for Custer's presence, but each is also capable of becoming (for want of a better word)a fist, fully capable of striking a punch on its own.
Custer's mistake we all agree was spreading out, but that in itself would not do the trick. Spreading out and not realizing that you are being simultaneously infiltrated along your entire front would. Terrain probably prevented that realization, THUS - Spread too thin. Die for your sin. That is what happened in the early days in Korea, and that is what happened on the Little Big Horn.
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Post by yanmacca on Mar 14, 2016 20:24:11 GMT
I wonder just how close these companies were in relation to each other, as I have the feeling that they were not operating in a single column. I would expect that they changed to a more looser formation and kept a good distance from one and other and I don't have a clue what these distances could have been, but between 50 and 100 yards would not surprise me.
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Post by Beth on Mar 14, 2016 20:57:01 GMT
QC your finger analogy really helps me visualize what could have happened. Not only did Custer spread himself too thin but he also did it in such a way that it played exactly into the NA battle play book.
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,800
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Post by mac on Mar 14, 2016 21:03:27 GMT
As Colt says it is a long way from LSH down to the ravine. Many of the markers are spurious and I think were the result of having lots of markers for men who died in the ravine. One marker is for Sturgis who was never found! I am also open to the possibility of some breaking towards the ravine when LSH falls and so adding to the higher part of the line of markers going that way. I can see a last desperate break in that direction if there is still some firing from Company E men in the ravine. I doubt anyone would get too far in that direction on foot. Cheers
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dave
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,679
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Post by dave on Mar 14, 2016 21:46:31 GMT
The idea of being a hussar drives him. That is Clair's drive also but he served and he is not like the other.
I can not understand wanting to do something and never doing it if there is nothing to stop you from doing it.
Regards
AZ Ranger Lack of Moral Fibre, LMF, a term used by the RAF to identify those lacking the courage required in action. Seems appropriate to keogh's wanna be world of pretend. If you want to be a soldier you have to join up or be a civilian like me. Regards Dave
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Post by quincannon on Mar 14, 2016 21:48:24 GMT
Ian: I would be amazed if they were as close as 50 to 100 meters. That is actually quite close for tactical purposes.
We have this vision of a column of cavalry marching as we would see it in Yellow Ribbon and Fort Apache. That is strictly the Captain Pretend version of things. Reality is that a prudent commander would have each of those companies spread on the march a couple of hundred meters apart and echeloned left and right off of the principle direction of the march centerline. It would be done for a number of reasons, the primary of which are security and keeping the dust down to a minimum. All the security and dust reduction does you no good though if you can't ball up that fist FAST, and the terrain being traversed inhibited that. Tactical movement is a series of compromises that must be made, and made to fit the terrain and the situation.
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Post by quincannon on Mar 14, 2016 21:54:57 GMT
My guess Dave is not one of lacking courage, but rather being found unfit by action of his peers.
In OCS more people are bounced or encouraged to leave as a result of Peer Reports than anything else. It is a marvelous tool for your peers know you much better than any tactical officer can. We called them Buddyf***ker chits, and they are deadly. The mantra was cooperate to graduate, and those found wanting by their peers were dealt with summarily. No comebacks.
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Post by Beth on Mar 14, 2016 23:35:09 GMT
As Colt says it is a long way from LSH down to the ravine. Many of the markers are spurious and I think were the result of having lots of markers for men who died in the ravine. One marker is for Sturgis who was never found! I am also open to the possibility of some breaking towards the ravine when LSH falls and so adding to the higher part of the line of markers going that way. I can see a last desperate break in that direction if there is still some firing from Company E men in the ravine. I doubt anyone would get too far in that direction on foot. Cheers Weren't some of the extra stones also for those who died in the Valley or on Reno Hill? I seem to recall there are hardly any markers in that area.
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Post by Beth on Mar 14, 2016 23:44:45 GMT
Ian: I would be amazed if they were as close as 50 to 100 meters. That is actually quite close for tactical purposes. We have this vision of a column of cavalry marching as we would see it in Yellow Ribbon and Fort Apache. That is strictly the Captain Pretend version of things. Reality is that a prudent commander would have each of those companies spread on the march a couple of hundred meters apart and echeloned left and right off of the principle direction of the march centerline. It would be done for a number of reasons, the primary of which are security and keeping the dust down to a minimum. All the security and dust reduction does you no good though if you can't ball up that fist FAST, and the terrain being traversed inhibited that. Tactical movement is a series of compromises that must be made, and made to fit the terrain and the situation. I'll admit that a lot of the images I used to have were shaped by Hollywood or television. Of course finding out how things actually happened is more satisfying and I no longer have to feel so sorry for the last guys in that long line.
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Post by quincannon on Mar 15, 2016 2:21:08 GMT
Beth: In my ship modeling activities I occasionally do small dioramas depicting two or three ships on the same diorama base. The size of the base restricts me in that I have to position the ships at unrealistic distances apart. You NEVER see ships close together at sea except for an UNREP/Refueling or when they are deliberately posing for a group portrait like Chris has as his signature piece. Most times they are separated by hundreds of yards, and in modern times by miles. I am limited by my base, as an artist is with the size of his canvas, or the director is by the frame of his camera. What we see then, most often is a made for the frame picture, not a portrayal of real life. What makes good pictures make poor tactics.
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