dave
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,679
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Post by dave on Feb 26, 2016 4:08:38 GMT
Does all this talk of chocolate and fine wine, mean I do not get the explain in nauseating detail the finer points of an airmobile assault on Ford D? Shucks, back to Zerstorer 25 and the eternal argument over the finer points of the 5.9 inch twin mount vs. the semi enclosed single. I for one will listen, chocolate be damned (sort of). Just started what looks to be a good read-"Halsey's Typhoon" co/written by Bob Drury and Tom Clancy. 60 pages in and having a hard time putting it down. Best, David David That is a good read and inspiring regarding the plight and rescue of the sailors of the sunken ships. I have an old web site that might be of interest to you dealing with the history of the USS Spence. It has action reports from her engagements, personal stories of crew members and pictures. The most interesting is that of her senior surviving officer LTJR A.S. Krauchunas, SC, USNR whose report of the ship's final hours is riveting. Another good read regarding Typhoon Cobra is Bruce Henderson's Down to the Sea. Regards Dave destroyerhistory.org/assets/pdf/wilde/512spence_wilde.pdf
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dave
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,679
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Post by dave on Feb 26, 2016 17:28:14 GMT
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Post by quincannon on Feb 26, 2016 17:44:41 GMT
Then there was Stanhope Ring who due to nearly criminally poor navigation caused a good portion of his air group off of Hornet to first get lost, then go into the drink (most of which perished) without firing a shot or dropping a bomb, and who retired as a Vice Admiral, while the guy who arguably won Midway, Clarence Wade McClusky retired as a Captain.
Justice was done though for there is a USS McClusky and not a USS Ring, nor will there ever be. Sometimes it just takes a little longer for justice to be done.
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Post by BrevetorCoffin on Feb 26, 2016 18:01:04 GMT
I for one will listen, chocolate be damned (sort of). Just started what looks to be a good read-"Halsey's Typhoon" co/written by Bob Drury and Tom Clancy. 60 pages in and having a hard time putting it down. Best, David David That is a good read and inspiring regarding the plight and rescue of the sailors of the sunken ships. I have an old web site that might be of interest to you dealing with the history of the USS Spence. It has action reports from her engagements, personal stories of crew members and pictures. The most interesting is that of her senior surviving officer LTJR A.S. Krauchunas, SC, USNR whose report of the ship's final hours is riveting. Another good read regarding Typhoon Cobra is Bruce Henderson's Down to the Sea. Regards Dave destroyerhistory.org/assets/pdf/wilde/512spence_wilde.pdfTY Dave. Enjoyed Halsey's Typhoon immensely. Incident was very much part of the age old issue of military organizations and civilian situations / businesses in crisis: someone didn't get the word. Add in the Indianapolis travesty, the friendly fire sinkings of the submarines Seawolf and Dorado, radar people on Hawaii mistaking Japanese warplanes for a flight of B-17s and it is pretty clear these things happen, inexcusable as they may be. Another good read is Neptune's Inferno about naval operations during the Guadalcanal campaign. Do not see a lot of parallels with LBH as Custer did not seem to be in the habit of clearly communicating with subordinates as opposed to communications being misplaced, ignored or misinterpreted. Maybe the underestimations of NA numbers by the Indian agencies? Food for thought. Sampling above is just that as I am well aware of Balaclava, Gallipoli, Waterloo and almost any other battle influenced by severe miscommunications. Best, David
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Post by quincannon on Feb 26, 2016 18:19:13 GMT
And in Neptune's Inferno you will read of the gross injustice done to Captain Gilbert Hoover of Helena, personally by Halsey, and about which he later admitted that he (Halsey) was wrong.
The McVey case with Indianapolis was another, and there is a back story to that as well. Even the captain of the boat that sank Indianapolis said that McVey did nothing wrong.
All this, Hoover, McVey, Halsey, Marks, King, Custer, Benteen, and Reno point only in one direction. To understand war, a human event, we must first understand the humans that wage war, and fully understand the institutions they represent. To do otherwise makes any study of war as useful as pissing up a rope.
Nothing is irrelevant or off topic in the study of battles, and of war itself, for all are interrelated in some manner. Each incident, no matter the time period give us valuable insights into the event we are then focused on.
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Post by BrevetorCoffin on Feb 27, 2016 0:44:55 GMT
And in Neptune's Inferno you will read of the gross injustice done to Captain Gilbert Hoover of Helena, personally by Halsey, and about which he later admitted that he (Halsey) was wrong.
The McVey case with Indianapolis was another, and there is a back story to that as well. Even the captain of the boat that sank Indianapolis said that McVey did nothing wrong.
All this, Hoover, McVey, Halsey, Marks, King, Custer, Benteen, and Reno point only in one direction. To understand war, a human event, we must first understand the humans that wage war, and fully understand the institutions they represent. To do otherwise makes any study of war as useful as pissing up a rope.
Nothing is irrelevant or off topic in the study of battles, and of war itself, for all are interrelated in some manner. Each incident, no matter the time period give us valuable insights into the event we are then focused on. With Captain Hoover you are pointing out the tragedy of the USS Juneau and his decision to not search for survivors. Tough decision. Assumption was that the entire crew perished in the massive explosion due to. Japanese submarine's torpedo just missing The San Francisco and detonating on the Juneau's port side. Assumption was no survivors and not enough on hand to chase an enemy sub. About 100 men were blown into the water of which 10 were rescued several days later. Correct decision, tragic results. Best, David
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dave
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,679
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Post by dave on Feb 27, 2016 2:13:13 GMT
Hoover made the tough but correct decision as Halsey later acknowledged. There is a good book regarding the loss of the USS Juneau, Left to Die by Dan Kurzman which I highly recommend. Regards Dave
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Post by BrevetorCoffin on Feb 27, 2016 2:39:43 GMT
Hoover made the tough but correct decision as Halsey later acknowledged. There is a good book regarding the loss of the USS Juneau, Left to Die by Dan Kurzman which I highly recommend. Regards Dave Non-wartime but somewhat similar was the Squalus incident. Tough decision to close off flooded sections aft of the control room literally sealing the fate of 26 men while allowing 33 more a chance to survive. Kudos to "Swede" Momsen and use of the McCann Rescue Chamber. From what I understand the skipper of The Squalus, Lt Oliver Naquin never commanded another vessel albeit served well in other capacities. Unfortunately he got tangled up in the Indianapolis disaster va is lack of follow thru and communication.
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Post by quincannon on Feb 27, 2016 4:44:16 GMT
The tragedy of Juneau is that Hoover reported the incident to B-17's that were in the area, thinking if there were any survivors (thought improbable) that the 17's would report it through channels and a search would be instituted. Problem was that Hoover belonged to one chain of command and the 17's to another.
The Principles that I am so fond of mentioning come into play here --- Unity of Command.
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dave
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,679
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Post by dave on Feb 27, 2016 5:38:49 GMT
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Post by BrevetorCoffin on Feb 27, 2016 13:28:49 GMT
The tragedy of Juneau is that Hoover reported the incident to B-17's that were in the area, thinking if there were any survivors (thought improbable) that the 17's would report it through channels and a search would be instituted. Problem was that Hoover belonged to one chain of command and the 17's to another. The Principles that I am so fond of mentioning come into play here --- Unity of Command. That, too
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Post by quincannon on Feb 27, 2016 15:38:29 GMT
As I said above, all these things are related in some manner.
Ring was an arrogant pretty boy
Ring ignored the advice of junior officers with more pertinent experience, led his force off in the wrong direction, and lost most of his force, without inflicting damage on the enemy. In effect he subtracted one third of the critical first strike at a critical hour. Had CAG8 been over Kido Butai at the same time as CAG5 and 6 we might have also gotten Hiryu and as a result save Yorktown,
Any of this sound remotely familiar?
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Post by Admin1 on Feb 27, 2016 17:29:31 GMT
Conversation moved from Custer, Benteen and Reno Thread
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Post by BrevetorCoffin on Feb 27, 2016 19:17:58 GMT
As I said above, all these things are related in some manner. Ring was an arrogant pretty boy Ring ignored the advice of junior officers with more pertinent experience, led his force off in the wrong direction, and lost most of his force, without inflicting damage on the enemy. In effect he subtracted one third of the critical first strike at a critical hour. Had CAG8 been over Kido Butai at the same time as CAG5 and 6 we might have also gotten Hiryu and as a result save Yorktown, Any of this sound remotely familiar? Coral Sea? Educated guess as both Hiryu and Yorktown were sunk at Midway.
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Post by quincannon on Feb 27, 2016 22:46:45 GMT
Midway.
Stanhope Ring was the CAG of Air Group 8. He worked out the navigation along with Marc Mitscher (who was not without fault in this matter) then Captain (Rear Admiral select)of Hornet. Waldron the commander of VT (Torpedo Squadron) 8 pointed out to both of them that their navigational solution was incorrect, yet neither would heed his advice and their decision prevailed. The air group took off, and Waldron immediately changed course to follow his own navigational solution (an example of moral courage trumping a direct order). Ring along with the rest of the air group followed the school solution. Waldron hit the target right on the money, completely unsupported a la Reno. Ring lost more than half of the air group due to running out of fuel and ditching.
Had the complete Hornet air group hit Kido Butai, chances are very good that Hiryu, along with her three companions would have been heavily damaged or sunk, and the strike that got Yorktown would have never been launched.
Coral Sea was a complete FUBAR on both sides. We were very lucky that Carrier Division Five were as bad as we were. Carrier Division Five (Shokaku and Zuikaku) were known among those serving in the IJN CARDIVS 1 and 2 as "The Sons of the Concubine". They were never well thought of by the old timers.
Actually CARDIV Five had the same problems that effected Hornet for their whole careers. CARDIV Five was rushed to completion and were never as well trained as the others to add weight to the strike on Pearl. Hornet was rushed to the Pacific without adequate work up and training for the Doolittle publicity stunt, and never achieved the proper balance as a fighting ship. Her two battles Midway and Santa Cruz showed what a poor performer she was.
There are lesson here that directly relate to those factors that were also ignored or dismissed at LBH for those who wish to take the trouble to see.
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