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Post by BrevetorCoffin on Mar 19, 2016 19:41:00 GMT
SATURDAY 19 March 2016 Saint Joseph's Day - Remembering USS Franklin CV13 and all who sailed in her, particularly the above and beyond the call courage of Commander (Chaplain) Joseph T. O'Callahan USNR MOH One tough ship and crew. Took her share of hits in earlier battles as well. God love them all!
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Post by quincannon on Mar 19, 2016 19:50:11 GMT
When I was a kid David I went to an elementary school staffed by the Sisters of Saint Joseph. Saint Joseph's feast day is on 19 March which is also the day Franklin got hit. We always had that as a school holiday, but just prior every year we would be told of Franklin and O'Callahan, and how Saint Joseph saved that ship.
Don't know how much Saint Joseph helped, but damned good damage control training, and USS Santa Fe (Holy Faith) had a hell of a lot to do with it I'd wager. Yes we were told about Holy Faith too.
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Post by BrevetorCoffin on Mar 19, 2016 21:51:40 GMT
When I was a kid David I went to an elementary school staffed by the Sisters of Saint Joseph. Saint Joseph's feast day is on 19 March which is also the day Franklin got hit. We always had that as a school holiday, but just prior every year we would be told of Franklin and O'Callahan, and how Saint Joseph saved that ship. Don't know how much Saint Joseph helped, but damned good damage control training, and USS Santa Fe (Holy Faith) had a hell of a lot to do with it I'd wager. Yes we were told about Holy Faith too. Great stuff QC. In a similar vein I enjoyed the story my Dad used to tell me about being a 15 year old kid manning his boarding school switchboard late morning/early afternoon (Michigan Time) of December 7, 1941. His description of the switchboard "lighting up like a Roman Candle" all at once was priceless. Best, David
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Post by quincannon on Mar 20, 2016 0:24:12 GMT
Bad news for Dave------Good news for Dave
First the bad:
Franklin was not named for the Battle of Franklin TN as many people including the builders plate installed when she was commissioned in 1944 would have you believe. Franklin was named in accordance with the naming criteria in place in 1940-41 which states that aircraft carriers would carry the names of battles of the Revolutionary War and ships of the Old Navy. Franklin was named for the five ships that carried that name from the Rev War and carried through the 19th Century. This naming convention was carried on through CV 21 Boxer (not named for the Boxer Rebellion as most think but USS Boxer of 1812 vintage). From CVL 22 onward all bets were off in the naming department.
The good news:
Franklin's call sign was DIXIE.
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Post by quincannon on Mar 24, 2016 21:10:42 GMT
I have read with considerable interest the thread on the black board that took a sidetrack to Peleliu.
I have read Davis, Sledge, and Hoffman, and the official Marine history of that campaign, along with the after action report.
It seems that particular poster has some heartburn with that campaign, for this is not the first time he has posted critical comments on the subject. As I recall most previous posts center around was Peleliu necessary in the first place, to which I answer,- When the boss tells you it is necessary, then it's necessary. I wonder if that poster would have given the order - Land the landing force - at Nassau in fear that someone was liable to get hurt.
So tell me:
How could it have been done differently or better? In specific detail if you please.
How many lives were saved on Iwo and Okinawa as a result of experience gained on Peleliu? Peleliu was not Guadalcanal or the other islands in the Solomons, nor was it Tarawa. It was a whole new ballgame of dense jungle and well dug in cave emplacements. So tell me how many lives were saved at those latter places?
I don't care who answers, but I will not be party to any bum rap directed to Puller, his division commander, or any other decision making leader, without calling out those that perpetrate that bum rap, by telling him to either, put up or shut up, by explaining how it could have and should have been different and still reach the acceptable state of clearing that damned island.
If he sees fit to come here, rather than just read what we write, I would welcome his answer, or that of anyone who wishes to defend his position.
For those that may not understand my point. Combat is combat. Decisions regarding any combat action should never be taken recklessly or without purpose, and they are made out of necessity with incomplete knowledge. Combat is also a live fire training exercise against a thinking, determined, adaptable adversary. You cannot, in the final analysis, learn to fight them, without fighting them, and absorbing the lessons therein learned for use in future conflict. So once again I renew my call - TELL ME HOW IT COULD HAVE BEEN DONE DIFFERENTLY OR BETTER. Same call as we all have made regarding Benteen and Reno, and there are no takers there either. Thank you DC for that valuable lesson.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Mar 24, 2016 22:01:16 GMT
Chuck, I have not read the post, but will do so presently, after I call your wife and tell her to let you have a cigar and a shot before dinner. Operation Stalemate, I think, was part of a larger strategic plan. It was controversial at the time. You mentioned short game vs long game in another thread. Could we have skipped that island and left that many enemy in our rear, maybe as they would have been virtually cut off. Would it have been wise? Easy to make a call with 70 years of hindsight. www.bing.com/videos/search?q=battle+of+peleliu&view=detail&mid=4582D21C09DEC09DEF044582D21C09DEC09DEF04&FORM=VIRE
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Post by quincannon on Mar 24, 2016 22:26:57 GMT
It was controversial at the time, and remains so today.
We could have bypassed Peleliu, but not without some potential danger. I agree that 70 years of hindsight clears vision considerably. You could not bypass it without watching it. Peleliu left undisturbed still had a usable airfield that would have to be under constant interdiction, to prevent its use as a staging are for the Kamikaze which were then coming into use as an organized force. To do that would probably mean diversion of one or more escort carrier groups, taking some force structure away from the impending invasion of the Philippines. There was still powerful units of the IJN still at large. Had they chose to, it is possible that they could have sortied for Peleliu with the purpose of draining combat power off of that invasion as well. All in all I think the decision makers took all of this into consideration, and said go. To me when Chester Nimitz nodded his head in the affirmative, that is all I need to conclude invasion of that island was the right call.
I am more concerned though Tom with the ground combat on the island. The Marines at that time were not all that different than the light force we ended up fielding during my time. Peleliu was a one of, but we needed answers because we just might face such again, and there may as a result of ignoring it, no oommph in our getalong.
There are times when fancy maneuver must take a back seat to straight ahead blocking and tackling, with all the pain appertaining to that most miserable of efforts. Hertgen was another that we looked at very closely. A much better case could be made that Hertgen was unnecessary. Personally I think it was, but I am not Bradley, nor could I read his mind at the time.
I never drink cigars or smoke whiskey before dinner. Nor do I give up on my call for someone to tell me how ground combat on Peleliu could have been done differently or better, and still clear the island.
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dave
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,679
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Post by dave on Mar 24, 2016 23:47:52 GMT
Peleliu was where the Japanese changed their defensive strategy. They were no longer attempting to defeat the Marines on the beach but allowed them to come inland and face the entrenched Imperial Army. New enemy tactics that cost the Marines dearly and the harbinger of worse casualties to come on future island campaigns. Regards Dave
Additional Good Books I have Last Man Standing: The 1st Marine Regiment on Peleliu, September 15-21, 1944 by Dick Camp Islands of the Damned: A Marine at War in the Pacific by RV Burgin (he served with Sledge) Goodbye, Darkness: A Memoir of the Pacific War by William Manchester
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Post by BrevetorCoffin on Mar 25, 2016 0:42:28 GMT
Not all that familiar with specifics on this battle. Will read about first, then comment. Won't just do Wikipedia either! First am reading about the hunt for Gavrilo Princip after he assassinated Archduke Franz Ferdinand and his wife to help launch WWI.
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Post by quincannon on Mar 25, 2016 1:21:21 GMT
If it is any comfort to anyone, were I a private or corporal on Peleliu I would want nothing more than to shoot the bastard that ordered me into that hell hole.
When you are a Captain, Colonel or Major General though, you see things from a different perspective, getting it done, and living with the consequences of your actions and orders forever afterward.
You have to look at both, but you also have to give the nod to those tasked with accomplishing the mission.
When you go into a butcher shop you had best expect it's going to get ugly early, and stay that way until the deed is done.
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dave
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,679
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Post by dave on Mar 25, 2016 1:54:02 GMT
Not all that familiar with specifics on this battle. Will read about first, then comment. Won't just do Wikipedia either! First am reading about the hunt for Gavrilo Princip after he assassinated Archduke Franz Ferdinand and his wife to help launch WWI. David I would recommend that you start with Sledge's With The Old Breed as it is a classic and most informative. I have it both in print and a Kindle version. Great read. Regards Dave
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Post by quincannon on Mar 25, 2016 2:42:00 GMT
I second that about Sledge, but that is not where I would start. Start with the official history and work down, rather than starting at the foxhole and working upward.
The bookstore at the Marine Corps Museum sells them for a very nominal price in large format paperback, and they sell on line. Another course of action look at what is available on line, and I will pick them up for you when I visit in June.
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Post by quincannon on Mar 25, 2016 17:17:26 GMT
Fully agree Matt. And that is exactly on point, learning how to fight a determined and adaptable enemy by means of the practical exercise called combat. I hope this is the first of many such places where honest discussion of the issues leads to some general agreement.
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dave
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,679
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Post by dave on Mar 26, 2016 0:45:59 GMT
Peleliu the island of many questions still today. The one question I'd like to bring up for discussion was Marine Major General William H. Rupertus' actions in not using the available combat reserve of the US Army 81st infantry division until the 1st Marine Division was decimated? Did he really want it to be an all Marine operation regardless of the cost?
I highly recommend the book listed below Victory at Peleliu if you are interested in the rest of the story. The 81st Wildcat Division took over from the Marines and finished the campaign but have been generally fogotten. Blair's book provides the ground pounder's eye view of the battle and is very well written. Good buy. Regards Dave
Victory at Peleliu: The 81st Infantry Division's Pacific Campaign by Bobby C Blair
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Post by quincannon on Mar 26, 2016 1:54:17 GMT
I don't know, but I am sure the answer is interesting, and it would not surprise me if the supposition posed was not accurate. Marine and Army relations were strained.
The good news is that I have the Green Book series in my library, so I will check and see what the Army has to say. It will have to be Monday or after though. This weekend is full.
Another promise to check on my part, what mess area was in the bow compartments of the Sumner-Gearing Class destroyers was fulfilled, but I am afraid no joy attained. The cutaways were reproduced in my reference material, but the print was so small in the reproduction/reducing process I was unable to read it. I think I was correct in saying it was the Chief's Mess, but don't bet the rent money on it
NOW For the man from Dixie:
The 81st (Wildcat) Infantry Division was the first division in the U S Army to be authorized a shoulder sleeve insignia (what most of you unlettered peons call a shoulder patch). It is the depiction of a Wildcat rampant, and the name is drawn from Wildcat Creek.
Your mission, if you care to take it on is identify (precisely) the location of Wildcat Creek. Precisely means exactly where it is, not just the general location
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