mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Jan 28, 2016 4:26:19 GMT
If we go back to JSIT he says they knew the cavalry would be coming and this is interesting when you look at the village being positioned behind the terrain that the warriors emerged from as Reno attacked. I do not suggest they were waiting for Custer but that the placement of the village was no accident but defensive in nature. I have read that the village was also very tightly packed which would make movement through it difficult. I really doubt that anyone would want to cross a river and then move into that village. Entering the valley to the north is still a problem but more attractive than ford B, by a long way I think. Cheers
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azranger
Brigadier General
Ranger
Posts: 1,824
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Post by azranger on Jan 28, 2016 13:02:45 GMT
Got some reading to do to catch up. I went to the Shot Show in Las Vegas and the Colorado River Law Enforcement Association meeting in Laughlin right after that. So I was gone for 10 days. I took my lap top but they want $9.95 for WiFi for 2 hours. Apparently they think it is better to be gambling.
The Shot Show was great with an unbelievable amount of products to view. The CRLEA meeting was better with a lot of my fellow law enforcement officers from all over state and adjacent states getting to together for education, information sharing, and seeing friends.
Regards
Steve
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Post by yanmacca on Jan 28, 2016 14:13:50 GMT
Mac, I suppose that after the Rosebud battle, they knew that it would only be a matter of time before they had another encounter with the army. It would be expected, but so soon? I suppose that through experiences in the past that the army would not give up and any setbacks like Rosebud, would not be forgotten. In fact they would probably come back in greater numbers and crush any opposition by sheer weight and strength.
I don’t suppose any commander would relish charging over a river and into tightly packed circles. But if all the Indians stayed within their inner circle then the cavalry would have to go and get them, and hitting the north end of the village would probably force all the civilians back into the circles, so if Reno was stopped and Custer was faced with a river and a huge village full of people then he would have one hell of a choice to make.
I think what it all boils down to is the village running, Custer could have been banking on Reno to start the ball running by scaring the hell out of the place, and starting a human stampede. GAC could then hit them while they were in disarray, but once Reno was stopped then GAC was faced with a different prospect. Yes the people had ran but the sheer volume of non-coms and warriors would be too much for him deal with alone.
If this was true then he could have found this out after he tried to force a crossing in the north, and the response he got was one of fury and resilience. And then after he was halted he found that his left flank was being compromised by warriors coming over the various crossing points (including deep ravine), and this influx this would force him to retire.
Yan.
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Post by quincannon on Jan 28, 2016 16:08:17 GMT
Another one of the dictums I am so fond of ---- If you can avoid making an opposed river crossing - do so.
Custer could have avoided making an opposed river crossing, and he did not. So B or D,-- X,Y, or Z did not matter. He made a tactical blunder by even considering such action, especially after viewing the village from 3411 or thereabouts
Dave: If the officer of the deck runs the ship aground, it is still the off watch captain sleeping in his day cabin that is responsible. The operative phrase is - A commander is responsible for all his unit does or fails to do.
Mac: I would not say that the village(s) were particularly set up for defense (as we understand the word), but I would agree they were set up for mutual protection.
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Post by yanmacca on Jan 29, 2016 13:03:18 GMT
Well I must admit that even I would have guessed that once I crossed to the eastern side of Reno creek that I will probably need to cross it again if I wanted to attack the village, this would have been more clear if I ventured up the bluffs with the river to my left and once I saw the situation from 3411 then that would convince me that if I continued north that I would have to cross the river and it would probably be contested by the occupants, as it would be clear enough from 3411 that Reno was being blocked, so I would expect some resistance.
But GAC had enough experience knocking about his HQ, Bouyer would know the score to a certain extent, so they probably knew that they would be faced with a river.
Now this is where I believe Custer went from aggressive to passive, I am certain that a man like Custer would be hell bent on getting stuck in, all the pointers are there, he had the largest battalion, he went at high speed all the way and by his own nature he was a combatant.
But here lies the rub, he expected disarray and that the non-coms had done him a favour and crossed the river, which would benefit him and rule out a river crossing, maybe he thought that they were all gathered in some of the coulees just waiting to be rounded up.
Anyway I am sticking my neck out here and saying that GAC assumed or gambled that the whole area would be in turmoil and most of the fighters would be over to his left and the non-coms were rushing to put a river between them and the soldiers, but this never happened and after being shot at trying to cross, he may have seen that there were hundreds of people all gathered in the trees and bushes and these had not crossed the river as he hoped.
Yan.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Jan 29, 2016 14:28:16 GMT
Yan, Initially the noncombatants, retreated to the bench lands west of the village, to include Sitting Bull. I have no idea whether Custer took note of that from the 3411 area or not. Wooden Leg's father had a view of much of the battle from that area.
Regards, Tom
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Post by quincannon on Jan 29, 2016 16:14:28 GMT
Expecting a crossing point not to be contested is an error unto itself. You expect the enemy to be just as smart as you think yourself to be.
The point is though, when you have no need to make any sort of river crossing, why incorporate one in your scheme of maneuver. Even an unopposed crossing can cause your some problems.
There was absolutely no advantage to be gained by going to the east side of that river in the circumstance presented to Custer. Had there been I would be the first to applaud him for his foresight and clarity of vision.
OEASB is the enemy of KISS.
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Post by yanmacca on Jan 29, 2016 16:39:54 GMT
I reckon that because he was only fighting Indians (which is his first mistake), that he could out smart them, I guess this was down to the notion that the whole place would go into a state of flux, in which mass panic would ensue, and that would leave him open to operate against a broken enemy.
We all know that you should never underestimate your enemy and Custer may have forgotten this. Just look at his battle formation, two battle groups containing around 360 men, a third with about 115 left out of the fight, another 80-90 detached and sent to the rear as pack guards, Custer was acting like an overconfident smart ass and he thought that he would end up chasing the whole village, with no real defense in place to stop him.
Yan.
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Post by Beth on Jan 29, 2016 19:59:48 GMT
Anyone who thinks they can outsmart their opponent has already made the losing move.
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Post by quincannon on Jan 29, 2016 20:13:27 GMT
ASSUME = ASS-U-ME
You never assume away the will of your opponents to fight.
You never assume you have he upper hand because you are you and they are them.
You never assume terrain will be your friend until you reconnoiter it.
You never assume you won't get caught doing something stupid.
You never assume away the enemies capabilities.
You never assume you are smarter than they are.
You never assume the enemy will do just what you wish him to do.
You never assume Right, God, Allah, The Stars in Their Courses, or the Good Fairy is on your side, and that alone trumps the enemy.
AND YOU NEVER ASSUME that putting two no go terrain features between the forces you have arrayed for battle is a good thing, no matter the circumstance
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Post by Beth on Jan 29, 2016 20:26:05 GMT
QC those are rules to live by, not just for a battle.
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Post by yanmacca on Jan 29, 2016 20:37:43 GMT
I agree with all of the above Chuck, but no one forced him to go over them bluffs and on one forced him to carry on after 3411, plus eleven other officers followed him in his quest. Talk about lambs to the slaughter or lions led by donkeys.
Yan.
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Post by quincannon on Jan 29, 2016 23:35:12 GMT
Beth: They are indeed rules to live by (in more ways than one), and that is why I constantly harp on the fact that tactics are nothing more than the practical application of common sense.
Ian if you live to be as old as the biblical Mephuselah you will never come to understand why Custer did what he did. Understanding the non-understandable is beyond the capacity of mortal man.
No Matt we are not. The review of actions taken speak volumes. That review even speaks for the dead.
Read everything I wrote then insert them into the narrative of the story. Custer was guilty of all of them. In a couple of instances he was not the only one. If you wish elaboration on specifics, just ask.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Jan 30, 2016 0:43:02 GMT
What evidence is there to support the conclusion, that seems to have been drawn by some, that Custer underestimated the Indian's fighting capabilities? I think it is quite the contrary; Custer was a great admirer of the Indians and their abilities. There is also no evidence that I have seen that allows us to assume Custer assumed anything. Are we not guilty of assuming that Custer assumed? Matt Matt, Your question is a fair one, I look forward to your follow up with QC. First Custer was ill informed regarding strength of the NA's, there was continual growth. He did, in my opinion under estimate his enemies will.
regards, Tom
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Post by quincannon on Jan 30, 2016 1:48:02 GMT
Matt what I posted about assumption are general rules. Custer was not mentioned in that post by name or any other way. I intended it to be that way, for they apply to all commanders in a combat situation.
The fact that you immediately associated Custer with those rules tells me that you found something in some or all of them directly applicable to LBH and Custer's actions.
Custer was ill informed, your words and Tom's. Ill informed to a commander means that he took the enemy for granted. That itself is an assumption on his part which leads to underestimating the will to fight, wishing away capabilities, and assuming that your enemy will do only what you wish him to do. Those too are assumptions, made by Custer, Terry, and probably every Tom, Dick, and Harry in a blue suit. How many times have you heard, --- the Indians will always run? That my friend encapsulates wishing away capabilities - underestimating the will to fight - assuming your enemy will only do as you wish him to do. The fact that Indians always run was a provable by previous action false assumption that led to all the rest. When did the Indians always run? Save yourself the trouble. They never did when the odds and/or circumstances were in their favor.
By going onto the bluffs, he assumed the terrain would be friendly to him, in other words terrain would not prevent him from doing what he wanted to do. Going onto the bluff assured that there would be two no-go features (the bluffs and the river)that separated his command from one another. He did not reconnoiter, which means he assumed that the terrain would be friendly. He further assumed he could get away with something stupid by violating the cardinal tactical principle of not separating unless you KNOW you can come back together in a timely manner to influence the outcome of battle.
I will leave the Right-God-Allah thing to anyone that does not think that Custer was so arrogant that he though he could assume his way to victory
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