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Post by quincannon on Dec 19, 2015 0:16:50 GMT
It occurred to me after writing my recent post on the Korean War thread attempting to answer Dave's questions, that I have a lot of lineage and order of battle information in my library, and I am willing to share it with anyone who may have a question on a given unit, that a relative, friend, or the mailman may have served in, and that they may wish information on.
Most of my stuff is for the combat units of the Army so if you are looking for the 1066th Quartermaster Mess Kit Repair Company I can't help you.
I will warn you in advance that most of the ACW units are not perpetuated in the modern army (20 and 21st Century), but still there are quite a few. For the ACW units I need state, and ACW wartime designation.
Give me what you want and what you have no matter how little and I will see what I can do. Post it on this thread and I will check it periodically.
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dave
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,679
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Post by dave on Dec 19, 2015 1:34:00 GMT
QC I had a great uncle Fred who drove in the Red Ball Express who lived till the 1960's but never talked about the war. He refused to watch war movies, cowboy films or any type of shooting activity. I suspect he suffered from PTSD or shell shock. The numbering system of the Army is about articulate to me as the Navy's designation of hull classification codes of their vessels. At least the US Air Force (just for you Tom) use sensible ways of IDing F fighters B bombers etc. Regards Dave
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Post by quincannon on Dec 19, 2015 2:19:55 GMT
Then your uncle was in one of the Quartermaster Truck Companies, and they are nearly all gone lineage wise, and will never see the light of day again.
The navy hull numbering system is fairly simple.
The Air Force has a couple of Lulu's. Don't give them an automatic pass.
Give me a famous ACW unit, and let me see if we can bring into the present, as an exercise.
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carl
Recruit
Posts: 48
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Post by carl on Dec 19, 2015 2:21:20 GMT
I have never understood the rationale behind converting a Company into a Battalion. (i.e. Tp A 7th Cav becomes lst Bn 7th Cav.) Chuck, can you explain the thinking that went into this?
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dave
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,679
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Post by dave on Dec 19, 2015 2:45:51 GMT
QC 11th Mississippi Infantry, Company A University Greys and the 16th Iowa Infantry (Beth's ancestors unit) are 2 units from different theaters of the War. A little more challenge for you would be the 29th Virginia Infantry a little know unit. They were a part of Pickett Division, Coarse's Brigade, and on detached duty at the time of Gettysburg. My GG Grandfather was George Washington Litton was a member of Company G of the 29th. He died as a POW on Hart Island in 1865 and is buried in Cypress Hills National Cemetery under the name of Litten. Happy Holidays! Regards Dave
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Dec 19, 2015 13:31:55 GMT
Dave, In some ways Chuck became a member of the famous Stonewall Brigade, part of the 29th still wears the Stonewall insignia. The 29th is made up of several states National Guard Units. I am sure when Chuck picks up on this I will be slightly corrected. This is name designation, not true lineage. Many of us have heard of the Bedford Boys, for those who have not it is an easy look up.
Regards, Tom
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Post by yanmacca on Dec 19, 2015 14:54:17 GMT
In five years time the British army will look like this; (this will enlarge and is in two parts) link
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Post by yanmacca on Dec 19, 2015 15:00:41 GMT
they have been planning this stuff for years;
Household Cavalry and Royal Armoured Corps • The Queens Royal Lancers will amalgamate with 9th/12th Royal Lancers (Prince of Wales's) upon completion of scheduled operational commitments and not before October 2014. • The 1st Royal Tank Regiment and the 2nd Royal Tank Regiment will merge upon completion of scheduled operational commitments and not before April 2014.
Royal Regiment of Artillery • 39 Regiment Royal Artillery and 40 Regiment Royal Artillery will both be removed from the ORBAT by October 2015.
Corps of Royal Engineers • 24 Commando Engineer Regiment will be removed from the ORBAT not before April 2013. • 25 Engineer Regiment and 28 Engineer Regiment will be removed from the ORBAT not before October 2015. • 38 Engineer Regiment will be removed from the ORBAT. • 67 Works Group will also be removed from the ORBAT not before April 2015.
Royal Corps of Signals • 7th Signal Regiment (Allied Rapid Reaction Corps) is to be removed from the ORBAT.
Infantry • 5th Battalion the Royal Regiment of Scotland (The Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders,) will be reduced to form a Public Duties Incremental Company on completion of current task and not before August 2013. • 2nd Battalion the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers will be removed from the ORBAT and absorbed into the rest of The Royal Regiment of Fusiliers upon completion of scheduled operational commitments in the autumn of 2014. • The 2nd Battalion the Yorkshire Regiment (Green Howard's) will be removed from the ORBAT and absorbed into the rest of The Yorkshire Regiment on completion of their Cyprus tour and not before the autumn of 2013. • The 3rd Battalion the Mercian Regiment (Staffordshire) will be removed from the ORBAT and absorbed into the rest of The Mercian Regiment on completion of Op HERRICK 19 and not before October 2014. • 2nd Battalion the Royal Welsh (The Royal Regiment of Wales) will be removed from the ORBAT and absorbed into the rest of The Royal Welsh not before autumn 2013. • 1st Battalion the Royal Irish Regiment will join the Prince of Wales’ Division. Army Air Corps • 1 Regiment Army Air Corps will merge with 9 Regiment Army Air Corps, bringing the Wildcat force under a single HQ based at Yeovilton not before October 2015.
Royal Logistic Corps (RLC) • 1 Logistic Support Regiment will be removed from the ORBAT not before April 2015. • 2 Logistic Support Regiment will be removed from the ORBAT not before October 2014. • 23 Pioneer Regiment will be removed from the ORBAT not before October 2015. • 8 Regiment, 19 Combat Service Support Battalion and 24 Regiment RLC will be removed from the ORBAT.
Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineer • 101 Force Support Battalion will be removed from the Regular Army ORBAT not before autumn 2015, and will transfer to the Reserve.
Royal Military Police unit • 5 Regiment Royal Military Police is to be removed from the ORBAT as part of the drawdown from Germany. The three remaining Regiments will be re-organised. • All SIB capabilities will be reorganised under one headquarters, while the Military Provost Service will be increased, and a specialist Support Operations group will be created.
The Royal Gurkha Rifles are to remain with two Battalions to sustain their capability and meet their unique operational requirement in Brunei. The current Regular and Reserve structure for the Army Medical Services will remain largely unchanged with three Regular and ten Reserve field hospitals.
The Intelligence Corps will retain three Regular military intelligence battalions.
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Post by quincannon on Dec 19, 2015 16:17:02 GMT
Wow you guys have been busy this AM.
Carl first:
It all happened Carl in 1957 when the army decided to get rid of regiments in 1957 as both tactical and administrative units. There was a Department of the Army Pamphlet issued that outlined the whole thing. I have a hard copy and will give you the number later today when I dig it out of the library. It is probably on line. If not I can make a copy and send it to you after the holidays.
The Army first went to Battle Groups under ROCID and ROTAD (Reorganization of Current Infantry and Airborne Divisions respectively) The Armored Divisions were not touched save how they designated their subordinate battalions. They then went to ROAD (Reorganization Objective Army Divisions - notice the plural of divisions as all divisions we reorganized on a similar basis) in 1962-63. The problem the Army had is what do they designated these battle groups and battalions, and how do they link them with the past. There are simple was to do this. The army chose hard.
Taking the Infantry as an example. Each regiment had fifteen companies, after the unlettered battalion (tank, medical, service and heavy mortar companies) were disbanded which they were. This left Companies A through M, plus the headquarters companies of the three battalions which could be used as lineage connections to the parent regiment. The regimental headquarters was placed under DA control with no strength assigned, in effect a unit on paper.
For this reorganization the Army had way to many regiments on the rolls of the Army and this number was reduced to a manageable figure. In wartime the regiment, say the 1st Infantry Regiment could expand to 15 battle groups or battalions, and these battalions could be assigned wherever needed. In peacetime there would always be at least one battalion of any given regiment on active duty somewhere. Initially some regiments had one battalion or battle group on active duty, while most had two. During Vietnam (a period of expansion)most regiments grew to three, a few had four, the 7th Cavalry had five, and the 1st and 17th Cavalry had six each. After that war, reductions were made and most went back to two. It would take something much bigger than WWII to have all of the regiments activate battalions up to their limit.
So the short answer is that the old regimental company was used as a historical conduit to the new battalion organization, bearing the regimental name. In all cases the company, say Company A, 7th Cavalry was redesignated Headquarters and Headquarters Company (the unit that carries the colors), 1st Battalion, 7th Cavalry, and the subordinate units of the battalion Companies A-B-C-etc. were new units).
There was also a provision where a company of the old regiment could be called onto active duty as a company. You find this a lot with the old separate brigades, where the cavalry troop, was just called Troop (whatever), 8th Cavalry.
Dave: If any of those units you list have preserved lineages they would be in the National Guard. I will look into the matter.
Tom: My membership in the Stonewall Brigade is purely honorary, bestowed upon me at the time of the activation of the 29th Infantry Division in 1985, and theoretically for services rendered. Still a very nice thing in my opinion. and one I cherish.
Ian: What can I say.
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Post by quincannon on Dec 19, 2015 16:43:17 GMT
Carl: The DA Pamphlet is DA PAM 220-1 dated July 1957 - Outline Plan Combat Arms Regimental System.
Dave: The 155th Infantry of the Mississippi ARNG perpetuates the 1st,22nd,32nd, and 33rd Mississippi Infantry, and the 1st Battalion of Mississippi Sharpshooters.
Keep in mind here that individual companies also maintain history, something unique to the ARNG, and your University Grays may be the company currently in Oxford. There is also the fifty mile rule in the National Guard. Lineages for company sized units are tied to locale. You can't move a company more than fifty miles from its original home, and keep the lineage. It is our connection with the city, town, or region of birth.
Check on the others later
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Post by quincannon on Dec 19, 2015 17:08:27 GMT
The Bedford Boys Company A, 116th Infantry Regiment.
As long as the rivers run, as long as the mountains retain their majesty, as long as there is a God in Heaven, there will be a Company A of the Stonewall Brigade in Bedford, Virginia. Bedford lost a generation of her sons on Omaha Beach, and most of them are forever residents of the bluff above the beach.
The 116th Infantry, with two battalions currently assigned to the 116th (Stonewall) Infantry Brigade perpetuate the 2nd, 4th, 5th, 27th, and 33rd Virginia Infantry of the ACW.
What was the locale from which the 29th VA Infantry was raised? That would help greatly.
No luck at all on Iowa. As a general rule (with many exceptions) if a unit did not exist in the State Militia before the ACW it is not preserved. The exceptions are, again generally, some war raised regiments that were consolidated with former militia regiments during the war. Iowa though perpetuates only those having existence before the war, the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th.
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Post by quincannon on Dec 19, 2015 17:48:21 GMT
A further comment on the Stonewall Brigade.
The 116th Infantry Regiment, was given the additional title Stonewall Brigade to perpetuate that unit in modern times. It was a typical regiment with three battalions and an unlettered battalion until 1959, when the 29th Division was reorganized under ROCID (battle groups). Then we had the 1st and 2nd Battle Groups, 116th Infantry (Stonewall Brigade). Later in 1963 the 29th Division was reorganized under ROAD, you had the 1st, and 2nd Battalions, 116th Infantry (Stonewall Brigade) and the 1st Battalion, 116th Armor (Stonewall Brigade).
The 29th was broken up as a division in 1968, and all of the Virginia parts were reorganized, and have been several times since. Regardless of the reorganizations though, all of the component parts desced from the old regiment, and that is why the number 116 was chosen for the brigade designation, so the 116th Infantry Brigade is actually the old regiment under another name. These things only happen in the Guard and are only allowed to happen in the Guard because of that connection with place of birth I spoke of earlier, as far as lineage goes. You find the same thing in Mississippi with the 155th, and a few other states.
A couple of examples of units that have separate histories as companies. The VAARNG company in Alexandria, VA perpetuates the 17th VA Infantry of the ACW (Alexandria Rifles), and Headquarters Troop, 1st Squadron, 183rd Cavalry in Richmond perpetuated the Richmond Light Infantry Blues. Home towns are a big deal in the NG.
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Post by quincannon on Dec 19, 2015 18:48:14 GMT
Carl:
Give me the designation of your FA battalion when you served with the Constabulary, then give me your Guard FA battalion. I will post the lineages of both as an example of the differences between the RA and Guard so that readers of this thread can see the differences in how it is done between the RA and Guard.
Also send me your home address by PM so that I can send you the DA Pam. Joan says she can scan and print on her computer printer here at home so I won't need to get them printed elsewhere.
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Post by yanmacca on Dec 19, 2015 19:55:28 GMT
Chuck you don't have to say anything my friend, its my own fault for posting all this British military stuff on a thread clearly marked for the US army.
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Post by quincannon on Dec 19, 2015 20:32:24 GMT
You misread me Ian. I think it quite sad that the British Army has had to face such reductions, thus I was at a loss for words - What can I say.
Your Cardwell system of the late 19th Century was quite well thought out, I believe, when Britain had the great responsibilities of Empire. Over the 20th Century and into the 21st the system has proven brittle in that massive reductions cannot be absorbed, and all of the regiments still be maintained. Thus all the disbandments and amalgamation in structure.
The inevitable trend is downward for all armies though, yours, ours, and everyone else's, and the cause is something we have talked about here frequently, smaller combat units being able to do more with the advent of new technologies. The divisions we spoke of the other day will fade from view, probably in the next 20 to 30 years, and be replaced by small combat groups, perhaps called brigades, perhaps not. There may come a day when we send a battalion to do the same job that a division did, half century ago. Armies are expensive to maintain, and the biggest expense to a nation is not the billion dollar widget, but rather personnel costs (salaries) and retirement costs (pensions) for old geezers like myself and a somewhat younger Montrose.
The U S Marines, in my opinion, are the world's leaders in this effort of smaller but better. One of their Marine Expeditionary Units (MEU's) built around an Infantry battalion, but with all arms attachments, including air, they are the most powerful 1500 men on earth. Were Guadalcanal to be reinvaded this afternoon, the job would be given to one MEU instead of the First Marine Division.
Post a couple of division lineages and orders of battle here if you will.
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