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Post by Beth on Nov 26, 2015 4:52:52 GMT
I am reminded of the Aesop's Fable of the Father who handed his son a large bundle of sticks and told him to break it. Custer divided his bundle of sticks up and the NA broke them.
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Post by yanmacca on Nov 26, 2015 13:01:27 GMT
Mac I hope you don't mind, I have altered your image to try and show the gap in battle ridge, it is probably wrong but I thought I would give it a go;  |
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dave
Brigadier General
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Post by dave on Nov 26, 2015 16:15:48 GMT
I am reminded of the Aesop's Fable of the Father who handed his son a large bundle of sticks and told him to break it. Custer divided his bundle of sticks up and the NA broke them. Beth we as a country would do well to follow the moral of this fable. Regards Dave |
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mac
Brigadier General
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Post by mac on Nov 26, 2015 21:24:28 GMT
I love it Ian.
Probably could go a little closer to the vehicle and round off but very well done.
The disposition of markers makes me wonder how prepared Company I were; looks much like they were really taken by surprise when the whole affair reached them.
Cheers
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Post by yanmacca on Nov 27, 2015 9:43:26 GMT
Your welcome Mac.
If Keogh had left C and L to cover the river area then he and I company could be oblivious to what unfolded over the ridge line, now I know this sounds nuts to us but if Keogh left Calhoun in charge and the situation was under control, then he may have thought that he was not needed there and retired to join his own company over to the east, this would mean that he was blind to events over the ridge.
Now I am sure that I have read stories about the warriors storming over a rise (maybe battle ridge) and catching Keogh’s men standing to, so looking at what we have discussed over the last few weeks then the prospect of Keogh’s men being surprised by a mounted force does sound feasible, especially if they came through that gap and hit their rear.
Yan.
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mac
Brigadier General
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Post by mac on Nov 27, 2015 11:25:58 GMT
I think I agree with QC's analysis of the warriors not being aware of Keogh and so then your corollary Ian, that Keogh was not aware of the warriors. Amazing thought that!
Interesting reading the Powder River thesis to see the view that the warriors would not fight surfacing again. If this is the case it may explain why Keogh thought they could just park and keep an eye out for Benteen.
Certainly that swale position they are in would be considered low ground surrounded as it is by ridges and hill on three sides. Warriors pouring in there as a mass would be unstoppable as the markers suggest.
This analysis would also confirm the notion that the only lengthy fighting was done by Calhoun, Crittenden and Company L.
Cheers
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Post by yanmacca on Nov 27, 2015 12:24:21 GMT
I agree over the swale area Mac, to me any units appearing on any of the high ground to the south would automatically see the men on Calhoun hill, so why have a company of cavalry sitting out of sight in a depression behind a ridge line, to be fair Keogh may have thought that he didn't need to deploy them as his orders dictated that this was a temporary position to await Benteen, C company was on top looking over the ground towards greasy grass ridge so unless he got word that this area was becoming untenable then he was ok with his dispositions, which brings me to the move off battle ridge by C company, was he aware of this move? and if he was then his own company "I" should have filled the void left by C.
Yan.
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Post by Beth on Nov 27, 2015 19:35:40 GMT
Why isn't it considered that Keogh might have been setting up a reverse slope defense?
Mac your comment about Keogh believing that the Indians wouldn't attack so he could just park, really explains everything, why Custer kept on even after possibly seeing Reno in trouble, why Custer continued to divide his resources and why he spread everyone out for miles. They probably never realized that yes, NA would fight until the last few minutes of the battle.
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Post by yanmacca on Nov 27, 2015 20:23:50 GMT
Yes Beth I agree with everything you say, it goes back even further than the Custer portion of the battle, back to were he detaches Benteen, Custer was constantly being told that this was going to be a big village and he starts fragmenting his regiment, after he sends Benteen off he has a total combat strength of around 350 men and then he splits once again, so Reno, Keogh and Custer all fell foul of the fact that these Indians are not running but fighting.
Yan.
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Post by quincannon on Nov 28, 2015 2:11:20 GMT
Reverse slope defense Beth? You HAVE been paying attention you little devil.
A reverse slope defense is and extremely good approach in certain situations. Not this one. In a RSD you are in fact luring the enemy forward to the point of imprudence on their part. The last thing any of the Keogh battalion needed was to lure any more forward.
Ian consider this. If Custer had stayed together, the Indians may well have run.
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Post by Beth on Nov 28, 2015 3:00:28 GMT
I always pay attention Chuck--I just don't always retain what I learn as long as I would like.
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Post by yanmacca on Nov 28, 2015 10:11:48 GMT
Chuck I think if all 11 companies rode up that valley there would have been one hell of a battle with the advantage going to the cavalry, because as we have read it took quite some time for the vast majority of the warriors to get into gear, and this would be crucial as it would have been them who were being defeated piece meal and not the soldiers, just wondered if Custer would have taken advantage of this situation and kept up the momentum, he had to keep hitting and hitting until they broke and not let them gather their strength and concentrate because that's how they stopped Crook and beat Reno.
Yan.
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Post by Beth on Nov 28, 2015 20:34:50 GMT
I wonder if there was such an immediate threat if the warriors would have taken time to get into battle gear. I have always thought that fact so many warriors were able to spend the time getting ready for battle shows they had the luxury of time.
I suspect that they were capable of grabbing their weapons and going directly into fight mode without their traditional pre battle routines whenever they found the threat was right at their doorstep.
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dave
Brigadier General
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Post by dave on Nov 28, 2015 23:08:42 GMT
Beth
Was it Crazy Horse who took his time getting ready for battle? I had read that he (I think it was him) would not attack the soldiers till he had painted himself and pony.
I could be wrong.
Regards
Dave
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Post by Beth on Nov 29, 2015 0:00:25 GMT
I believe quite a few took the time to ready themselves for battle. I believe but I am no expert that the routine has as much to do with religion as fighting so it was considered necessary. I know that the patterns each warrior used for himself and his horse was not random and had great meaning.
I suspect though just like modern armies, if someone is attacking your base, you skip your routine, grab your weapon and fight. Or perhaps a better example is if someone breaks into your home while you are eating breakfast, you don't necessarily take the time to fully dress before grabbing something to defend your family.
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