Significance of the gap

[mac]

Fred Wagner has discovered the gap in battle ridge as shown in his book "The Strategy of Defeat".
What is the significance in terms of the outcomes or even the speed of the outcomes at the Keogh, Calhoun Hill positions?
Cheers

[yanmacca]

Hi Mac, it looks to me like the gap in battle ridge turns the Keogh position into an island, the whole area is virtually surrounded by a ring coulees and this gap adds to this ring giving Keogh areas of dead ground to cover, plus is also provides the Indians with a natural avenue to Keogh’s rear, which is not good.

Yan.

[quincannon]

Minimal. The significance of the gap is that it provides one of two reasons why Company I was where it was, the other being direct line of sight to N-C Ridge and being in position to support any link up.

Other than that put the gap to bed by asking one's self if absent the gap would the Indians still use Deep Ravine as an avenue of approach to Battle Ridge. I think that answer is that they could and would.

We have no direct evidence to suggest that Keogh was first engaged by people coming through the gap, first engaged being the operative words. What we do have is evidence that Indians spilled around the left flank of Company L into the very area Company I was watching, and it is much more likely Company I would in the initial phase of their battle be primarily concerned with them.

[mac]

One thought is that a gap provides a high speed route, if you will, to allow CH to link with the warriors on the east of Keogh. This gives a fast envelopment of those to the south of the gap and isolates those to the north. Timing here could matter and if, as you point out QC, Calhoun was flanked on his left around the same time then Keogh would be smashed.
Cheers

[quincannon]

Mac: I am not sure how much of a high speed avenue that Deep Ravine was. In fact I don't believe it was especially high speed, rather one that took advantage of concealment, and the cover provided by that concealment. You will be there in a week or so, give us your opinion. I am also questioning my own judgment as to the route CH took to the festivities. Been hanging around with Tom too long I guess. The swing around the long way and over Battle Ridge Extension and into the rear has some attractive points, but those points are mitigated by the fact that Custer and CH would have passed each other. Going to have to give that one a bit more thought.

[Beth]

Isn't deep Ravine different today from 1876? For one thing when they put the road in they probably changed the drainage significantly.

[quincannon]

I would think the passage of time and man's imprint would change it significantly, but what would not change is the course and direction, and it is the course and direction that are significant, not the depth and subsequent fill.

[yanmacca]

I will stick my neck out and say that Keogh’s company “I” got hit after the Calhoun hill position had fallen, I am sure that some Indian stories say that it was when troopers from all three companies gathered together that the fighting was most fierce, and some say it was the hardest fight.

Plus for warriors to swing round and hit Keogh from behind or even from his flank, would take longer to arrive, especially if they came from the valley fight.

Another plus, if we had this large group of warriors (some mounted) flying up to crest battle ridge, then surly this would be seen from cemetery hill, and for warriors to cross over via the northern fords and miss Custer’s group on their way to hit Keogh from the north, seems wrong.

I have a notion that deep ravine was only used after Custer’s group was returning from ford D, and Keogh was assaulted by bands moving through deep coulee and Calhoun coulee.

Yan.

[mac]

QC
The concealment and cover part is certainly true. The high speed in my mind is from that concealment through the gap and back with the bonus of uniting/syncronising attack from both east and west.
Ian
Your timing logic bears some thought.

With respect to the Crazy Horse route there are several versions. The account I favour has him riding from the valley through the village and crossing past Ford B and up Deep Ravine. This makes sense to me as when he arrives the troops are visible and many warriors have gone up opposite the village. If I were him I would want to get around to the north of them as the south is already covered. Absent knowledge of Custer's movements there is no point going beyond Deep Ravine.
Cheers

[yanmacca]

Yes Mac, why would CH carry on with his ride toward Keogh if he saw Custer’s group and if Custer did see even the tail end of CHs band then he should have known that the Indians had not only got in between the two battalions but had drove a wedge between them as well.

The best way of judging Custer’s position when CH rode up through deep ravine, would be to try and fathom out at what phase in the Keogh fight CH emerged, now we need some idea on how long it took Custer to leave Keogh and arrive at ford D, then turn around and arrive on cemetery hill, and just how far back from cemetery hill could he see deep ravine, as these mounted warriors would make a hell of a lot of dust.

There could be a case for Custer seeing that his enemy had cut between the two battalions and his only option left was to engage the Indians to his front.

Yan.

[Beth]

Great food for thought here. It makes me wonder if Custer was so focused on his recon that he was totally obvious to everything going on around him. I could see one person being that focused but what about everyone else?

[mac]

I do not have anything with me at the moment but off the top of my head...I suspect the CH was entering Deep Ravine somewhere around the time Custer was slipping away along the back of Battle Ridge. So they would remain in complete ignorance of each others position at that stage.
Cheers

[quincannon]

If memory serves for I do not have a map at hand, as you proceed from Ford(s) C, you move up Deep Ravine to a point where the ravine forms a Y as it moves toward the top of Battle Ridge. If you take the right fork it leads to the gap. If you take the left fork it brings you out on Battle Ridge about half way between the gap, and LSH.

Mac: Check that out when you visit, and see which would be the best to use, given a known location opposite the gap for Keogh

[yanmacca]

I would suppose that all was under control when Custer left Keogh, now I don’t know how long it would take to ride the full length of the eastern side of battle ridge but if GAC was going at a fair trot then battle ridge is about a mile long so how long would this take to ride?
So if we say that CH hit the line after Calhoun hill had fallen then this would mean that Custer should be past the environs of battle ridge, so I guess for Custer and CH to miss each other, Custer should be right down on flats near the river probably opposite ford D.

[quincannon]

Ian: I think CH could have arrived on one of three axis, four if you count both forks of Deep Ravine.

1) Across Ford B and up Deep Coulee: --- I rate that as unlikely, simply because every one else was going that way, and I think CH was much too smart to simply join the crowd and execute what would be a frontal attack.

2) Across Ford C and up the southernmost (right) fork of Deep Ravine and exit the Gap: Again unlikely simply because he would directly confront at least some of Keogh's Company I.

3) Across Ford C and up the northernmost (left) fork of Deep Ravine: Very likely in that he could push up and over Battle Ridge and get east of Company I with little if any trouble.

4) Go far north and cross at Ford D then instead of fooling around in this smaller ravines Custer used, go over Battle Ridge Extension and loop around east of where the Indian Memorial now stands and come into Company I's rear. Again a likely avenue.

Too me it is a toss up between #3 and #4. Number 3 he avoids all contact until he choses to make contact. Number 4 is the same, and I think it very possible that he could get north of Custer's route, and pass him, without either seeing each other. IF CH got over Ford D before Custer had eyes on it, and again if my memory is correct they could have come within a few hundred meters of each other without visual contact. Number 4 depends on who was exactly where, when.

Also there is nothing saying that CH got east of Keogh first, only that he was east of Keogh.

I think Company L was flanked on their left, and Indians maybe with CH and maybe without were down in the CH Ravine area well before Company C went on their little adventure, and also well before Company L folded. There was nothing to stop them from doing so.