Significance of the gap

[mac]

I will certainly be interested in the terrain here.
I think options 3 and 4 appeal tactically to a dispassionate commander but there is the NA warrior sensibilty to consider which is the bravery run, confronting the enemy and perhaps counting coupe, which makes me favour 2. Also I have seen a quote attributed to Red Feather who was a relative of CH saying the CH rode through a small gap in the ridge. Of course one must be wary of such quotes but it predates Fred's work as I discussed it with him privately before he published.
Having said all that, some want option 1; but I agree with QC that it is unlikely in my mind that CH would just follow the crowd straight after the enemy. He was a deeper thinker than that.
I leave in 24 hrs and I am sure I will return none the wiser but maybe more opinionated
Cheers

[quincannon]

Option 3 does not preclude the truthfulness of Red Feather, nor does it eliminate any bravery run, in fact it facilitates such wanton nonsense.

Where the north fork of DR hits near the ridge top there is a small V shaped gap. When you arrive look at the painting on the park brochure, and compare it to the terrain. You will see on the left side of the painting a place where the Indians seem to emerge from the ground. That is where the north fork of DR brings you out, and erase from your mind all of what is in the foreground, CH would have seen all that ground empty. He could have gone over the ridge top north of Keogh and have been on his eastern flank and into CH ravine very fast, and from there started the bravery runs.

The situation was very fluid with multiple events happening concurrently, not sequentially. That is what makes it so hard to visualize, the concurrent, non-sequential aspects of this.

[mac]

OK very interesting observation. I will look hard. It is great to have some very specific things to look for rather than just doing a large scale "look around".
I will also give attention to the northern end of battle ridge and beyond.

[quincannon]

Mac: When you look at that northern route, make the assumption that Custer used the ravine that comes down off LSH and past the park headquarters and front gate of the cemetery. As soon a you clear the cemetery heading for the front gate there is another ravine that leads generally westward, and bring you out to appoint where the Fords D are a few hundred meters in front of you. In other words he went initially east of Cemetery Ridge, then in a westerly direction just to the north of it.

[mac]

No worries! Leaving soon.
Cheers

[yanmacca]

Here are an image that I have posted before, it is an old favorite and everyone should have a copy, it is a shot of the area which shows how the ravines and coulees slope up and fork into smaller channels, and shows even without a gap, how difficult is would be for Keogh to secure his rear.

[deadwoodgultch]

Sept 4, 2015 3:35:02 GMT quincannon said:

Mac: When you look at that northern route, make the assumption that Custer used the ravine that comes down off LSH and past the park headquarters and front gate of the cemetery. As soon a you clear the cemetery heading for the front gate there is another ravine that leads generally westward, and bring you out to appoint where the Fords D are a few hundred meters in front of you. In other words he went initially east of Cemetery Ridge, then in a westerly direction just to the north of it.

Chuck, Stands in Timber, discusses the northern route at length. The Cheyenne's never understood the halt and felt that even at that late time he may have been able to break through and save a large portion of his command and have later joined Reno. If he had continued southwest from the Ford D area. The Cheyenne never understood the halt, he had to see the rising numbers against him.

Regards,

Tom

[Beth]

Sept 4, 2015 9:20:40 GMT yanmacca said:

Here are an image that I have posted before, it is an old favorite and everyone should have a copy, it is a shot of the area which shows how the ravines and coulees slope up and fork into smaller channels, and shows even without a gap, how difficult is would be for Keogh to secure his rear.

I wish someone could take that picture and put markers on it of the key positions.  

[yanmacca]

Beth, I have tried to colour code some of the features on that map, I just hope I have got them right;

Custer Ridge
Deep Ravine
Calhoun Coulee
Calhoun Ridge
Calhoun Hill
Greasy Grass Ridge
Deep Coulee

[quincannon]

Ian: That is right on the money as far as I can tell. Note the Y shape of Deep Ravine, and relate it to the discussion on the CH route.

[yanmacca]

Chuck this one show Deep Ravine in all its glory;

[yanmacca]

Here is some more for Beth;

[dave]

Yan
Thank you for the maps. They are of great help for me to see things better.
Regards
Dave

[Beth]

Thank you so much. Those maps are so helpful. I really appreciate it.