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Post by herosrest on Aug 18, 2023 12:34:56 GMT
m.youtube.com/watch?v=8mrGnOtlK90 How effectively will a directed barrage of 30mm Gatling fire, clear paths across minefields? Would it be cost effective? How would the 1862 be defended, in use? I enquire because someone will know. TVM
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Post by quincannon on Aug 19, 2023 2:37:36 GMT
Waste of ammunition. Use a tank with a mine plow or a combat engineer vehicle is much more efficient. Even a bulldozer, with a little applique armor can get the job done. Then there is the old fashioned way favored by us antiquated folks who wore crossed muskets, a bayonet in the hands of a soldier with a bushel basket full of balls. Seriously to answer your question HR, using a Gatling type gun might sound like a good method, but what about the mine that a bullet misses?
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Post by miker on Aug 19, 2023 11:52:56 GMT
Chuck forgot the use of the MICLIC: Mine Clearing Line Charge. It's launched by a rocket, is usually about 100 meters long and clears enough latterly to allow a tank to go through. They can be carried in a trailer or in some cases are/were mounted on Bridge Vehicles. The plows/rollers go through to "proof" the gap.
They also do a nice job on any infantry in the area.
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Post by quincannon on Aug 19, 2023 15:52:17 GMT
Yes, I did. Be kind to your elders, whippersnapper.
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Post by herosrest on Aug 23, 2023 10:06:43 GMT
Thank you gents. So a 30mm barrage could not be trained to clear a reliably safe corridor.
Pity. An M61 on a WAM would have been ideal.
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Post by miker on Aug 24, 2023 22:55:16 GMT
In desert Storm my division used 20mm Vulcans usually used for air defense to suppress infantry in trench lines rather than clearing them the old fashioned way.
They’d shoot down the trench axis, the two tanks with mine plows would move along each side collapsing the trench and an M9 ACE or a bulldozer would come along and smooth things out.
Most people got out of the trench, but some were stubborn.
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Post by herosrest on Aug 28, 2023 9:54:34 GMT
Hmmmm................... explain stubborn? How were the active vehicles covered? sorry...... protected. I take this was a clean up after breaking through.
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Post by miker on Aug 28, 2023 10:29:37 GMT
Stubborn. Infantry stayed in the trench and got buried instead of getting out and surrendering.
Before we went we fired a 30 minute prep from 5 Artillery brigades. Before that we had 3 raids of 3 B-52s each drop at 10, 2,and 4 just like doctor Pepper. Then 3 Mc-130s dropped Daisy Cutter bombs.
Then we fired a 30 minute prep from 5 Artillery Brigades.
The Vulcan shot Down the trench. The Tanks had 3 machine guns one fired by the gunner, one by the loader, and one by the tank commander. The plow tanks were also supported by the other two tanks in the platoon and then there was 1 or 2 infantry platoons depending on how the companies were task organized.
Attack helicopters and artillery provided support through along with battalion mortars.
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Post by quincannon on Aug 28, 2023 18:29:58 GMT
A total waste of munitions for my liking. For Christ sake you were in the desert, just go around the buggers and starve them.
That said, I know why it was done. Firepower takes the fight out of untrained, weakly led troops, but what you describe Mike is like taking a baseball bat to kill a cockroach. Try that shit against someone who knows what they are doing, and they are going to beat the crap out of you with counterbattery, and cause you untold casualties while you are massing fire against a bunch of goddamned holes in the ground, instead of keeping on moving, and unhinge those same holes by maneuver. You might not have a choice but to do something like that in built up areas, but you were not in a built up area.
It's no damned wonder that English writes what he does about the American way of war. It stinks.
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Post by herosrest on Aug 28, 2023 19:59:53 GMT
I assume the enemy position had no mobile reserve or arty to do counter battery. That being so, maximum force sounds awesome. I imagine that one of your men at least, managed a minor scratch shaving that morning - assuming of course that you assaulted in daylight. That level of concentrated firepower is awesomely shocking. Russian arty outranges U force. I believe that a few contributors enjoy air shows. RIAT 23 just completed. I didn't pick up on it this year then bumped a pro video by an enthusiast. Wow.... Me-262. www.airtattoo.com/the-airshow/aircraft-and-pilots/confirmed-aircraft/Google or Youtube RIAT 2023.
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Post by herosrest on Aug 28, 2023 20:04:27 GMT
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Post by miker on Aug 28, 2023 23:29:58 GMT
Well, Chuck. I wasn't the planner.
We knew were outranged by their artillery. We compensated by conducting Artillery. Raids which our MLRS units (I am not sure the cannon units played) conducted by running up in range of their artillery, letting fly, and running back. I only remember one conversation on the Division Command Net about Iraqi Artillery when we went across.
We had very few sorties prior to going and I am not sure how many we actually got during the battle since I was stuck either out of communications at our last site before we jumped off or in the back of the company kitchen truck trying to catch up with the DTAC.
All this prompted us to use a lot of artillery. The division was task organized with 6 tank and 3 mech infantry battalions, and we were very worried we didn't have enough artillery. So much so that we tried (I am not sure how hard, I wasn't directly involved) to get 1-16 Infantry from the 1 ID(Forward) which were being used as stevedores and was commanded by (Now) General Russ Honoree (you may know him from Hurricane Katrina) who was highly regarded by everyone who knew him at that time, me included.
For those that don't know, a BFV only carried 6 Infantryman at the time and that gave us a whopping maximum of 864 dismounted Infantry in our Infantry battalions facing three infantry brigades which were certainly not at full strength, but did have relatively good fortifications to defend from.
We weren't going to go on the first day, but the Marines were having success and they told us to go early, so our three hour prep was shortened to 30 minutes.
I had a brief conversation with the CG, a few days prior to the attack, where I queried him about the danger of telegraphing our main effort to the Iraqi's and he said words to the effect of he wanted them to know we were coming and that he wanted them tired and demoralized. This seemed to work. One of their battalions said they surrendered because of the B-52 strikes. The G-2 expressed some surprise because we had not targeted that battalion. The battalion commander said, we weren't hit. You hit the battalion next to us.
Again, I was out of communication with the Division and flat on my ass of the Company Kitchen Truck (we never knew where we were going to ride when the main displaced, in spite of my asking the Deputy G3 and the G3SGM about assigning us to trucks so we could keep track of everyone) and wasn't a planner, and we were not in control of the battle, so I don't know everything about what we did except what I read in books. I did summarize our activities in a historical report which was even used in some books about the battle.
Not every enemy unit was detected, hit, or demoralized. When we took Safwan Airfield, we were surprised to see a full strength Armor Brigade on the Airfield and fully in combination with its headquarters. When the 2nd BDE commander met the enemy commander, he told him to get off airfield or he would kill every man in his brigade. The enemy commander said to him "Colonel. I am a soldier. You are a solider. I will follow my orders. I will call my headquarters to see what they want me to do." By this time some of our soldiers were giving rations to the Iraqis. The BDE CDR offered an MRE saying "Would you like to have lunch with me?" The enemy commander drew himself erect and said, "Colonel, I have a kitchen and a chef. Would you like to have lunch with me?" The CO (who I later served with as his S-4) said no thank you. I can give you 3 hours to comply and left. When he returned, he had broken his nose in a minor accident and met with his counterpart, who said he would be off the airfield in 2 hours. The COL Moreno said that was within his orders and they shook hands. As they broke the handshake, the Iraqi asked "What happened to your nose?" Tony said, "When I left my driver asked me if I thought we would have to fight, I said 'no' and he got mad and hit me."
At least that is what he claimed. Of course, I was now sitting on my ass listening to the radio in the OPS Van as the events took place, since the DTAC was in control and everyone and his brother was up on the airfield. And now you know some of the rest of the story.
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Post by quincannon on Aug 29, 2023 3:07:40 GMT
My point here Mike is that procedure looks more like it would be most effective in a European environment, with great expanses of built up areas. Appears then that our "desert generals" had their heads up their European asses. I tend to be a bit old fashioned in my thinking preferring when I am in Rome to do what is most effective in Rome.
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Post by herosrest on Aug 29, 2023 7:36:10 GMT
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Post by miker on Aug 29, 2023 9:31:59 GMT
Chuck. I fail to understand your point. At the time doctrine said to stay out of cities. And there were few, if any, cities inside our zone.
I agree in retrospect it looks like overmatch. At the time the division estimate was 50% casualties in the four assaulting battalions.
We were the corps main effort you know. Although the mission was to open the MSR. We did much better than expected, then the division sat for about 12 hours while we passed the 1 UK Armor division. I think corps was surprised at our success and didn't know what to do.
There was also not much heavy fighting the first night. I remarked upon it to the chief who did not give me a satisfactory answer by saying yessir.
All in all the sand is scattered all over the landscape.
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