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Post by yanmacca on Mar 27, 2023 8:37:06 GMT
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Post by yanmacca on Mar 27, 2023 8:38:01 GMT
There you go Mac, better late than never
Ian
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Post by miker on Mar 27, 2023 10:26:53 GMT
Thanks Mac.
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Mar 27, 2023 11:53:56 GMT
In response to the request here is a graphic view of how I see the final phases of Custer's fight at the Northern end of the battlefield.
I am of the opinion he took all 5 companies with him to the Northern Valley.
This first map shows Custer's command in blue. In red there is:-
To the South the Sioux fight in the valley with Reno. The Sioux have (by all accounts) formed their usual half moon formation after rounding Reno's left flank.
In the Northern Valley the Cheyenne have (by accounts) halted Custer short of the river and then with growing numbers, started rounding Custer's right flank to form the same traditional half moon formation. Wolf Tooth and a number of others (by accounts) are already on Battle Ridge. Custer will very soon decide that he needs to leave the valley and move back to the higher ground.
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Mar 28, 2023 0:55:25 GMT
When Custer arrives at the Northern Valley it looks like he will be able to cross the river without too much opposition. The Indian accounts tell us that there were not very many men there at that time and the men who were there had crossed the river to the same side as Custer and had concealed themselves to await his arrival, rather than try to resist his progress. So from Custer's perspective the valley looks quite empty. However there are many Indians on the way, both from the Cheyenne village and returning from the valley fight, as soon as Reno left the valley. Returning Cheyenne like American Horse went to the Northern Valley. Sioux like Crazy Horse and Gall went to Ford B and up Deep Coulee.
Then they all rushed down below and saw Custer coming down the hill and almost to the river. I was one of the first to meet the troops, and the Indians and the soldiers reached the flat about the same time. When Custer saw them coming, he was down at the river bottom at the river's bank. The troops there fought in skirmish line, and there they fought for some little time. Then the troops gave way and the Indians followed them up the hill.
American Horse Cheyenne Memories...Hardorff P 27-31.
Custer now finds himself engaged in the valley by increasing numbers of fighters who are moving past his right flank and moving around to his rear. On the high ground to his East there are already some Indians (Wolf Tooth et al) Map 1. Clearly he cannot cross the river and should at least retake the high ground. So he leaves the valley with the Indians following close on his heels.
Map 2 will illustrate this next step.
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Post by quincannon on Mar 28, 2023 1:06:33 GMT
Are we talking about the map at the top of this page?
If so, I think we need better graphics to portray the ideas expressed here. How about letting Mike and I work on that using standard military symbology, if he's a mind to. so all of our readers can benefit from the ideas expressed. The best of ideas are not much good unless we make understanding easy.
Mike has created a super sized map of this same area, as related earlier, where you can see so much more detail. I have one, and the detail is fantastic, so much so that last Sunday I gave my MacElfresh away to a budding fourteen year old LBH student I met at church.
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Mar 28, 2023 7:25:37 GMT
No worries QC. Map 1 at the top of the page. Map 2 will show positions immediately after leaving the valley. Ian will post map 2. I suspect MacElfresh is well painted in your memory.
Cheers
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Post by yanmacca on Mar 28, 2023 18:51:58 GMT
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Mar 29, 2023 2:41:50 GMT
Thanks Ian! Here is Map 2 which shows the geometry just after Custer has returned from the valley (Map1) to the high ground of Battle Ridge Extension and Cemetery Ridge. E Company (Grey Horses) are occupying Cemetery Ridge. Companies C, I, F, and HQ are occupying Battle Ridge Extension (including Last Stand Hill). Custer has already sent Company L South towards Calhoun Hill.
According to accounts when Custer moved out of the valley and back to the ridge the Indians on the ridge dropped off to the East. They then occupied the next ridge to the East (compare Map 1 to Map 2) and continued fire at Custer from the ground between the two ridges. This is where the Indian Memorial now stands; and this is why the memorial is placed on that particular terrain feature.
To the South the letter G represents the general area where Gall was starting to gather Indians returning from the Reno fight or coming up from the village.
I will in the near future start a new thread to explore/discuss some thoughts on the details of this part of the battle.
Map 3 will show the final geometry.
Cheers
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Post by quincannon on Mar 29, 2023 3:44:50 GMT
I'm not buying those cavalry positions Mac. That gap between those two lines roughly lines up with the park entrance road. I recall standing by the monument on LSH looking in that direction, and saying to myself, if the Indians attacked up that corridor it game set match in five minutes. It's akin to leaving your front door wide open with Atila and some of his close associates on your front porch.
Not saying your basic idea is not sound. I am saying those blue lines together would look more like a horseshoe.
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Mar 29, 2023 8:53:20 GMT
Fair enough. It is about the idea rather than complete accuracy. I fancy a visit to the site would be essential to really accurately nail down the actual positions. On further examination I agree with you. Ooops!
Cheers
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Post by yanmacca on Mar 30, 2023 9:11:13 GMT
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Mar 30, 2023 10:31:31 GMT
Well played Ian; thank you. Here is my view of the final situation. Large numbers of Cheyenne around Last Stand Hill with only Company E, F and HQ left. To the South Large numbers of mainly Sioux with Gall and Crazy Horse opposite Calhoun Hill. (Red Hawk account)
Large numbers of Sioux and Cheyenne around Greasy Grass. The red arrow line shows Crazy Horses' "Northern Loop". I believe (from accounts) that Crazy Horse left Gall and crossed over the river, moved North and then crossed back to move up behind Calhoun Hill. This makes perfect sense.
It is simply coincidence that he arrives just as Keogh and Company I have arrived. He is estimated to have had up to 200 followers with him.
The map shows that the Cheyenne and the Sioux each followed their normal tactical approach by forming a half moon around the enemies flanks. In this case, again coincidence, that created a double envelopment of Custer's force. Checkmate! Cheers
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Jan 21, 2024 5:20:47 GMT
I think the above maps are a good summary of my conclusions about the Custer portion of the battle, so any new reader will quickly understand. There are a couple of thoughts I would like to add. These are not conclusions, just thoughts for discussion. I may have mentioned bits other places but I figure that posting here makes it easier for everyone.
Cheers
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Mac Map
Jan 21, 2024 18:01:08 GMT
via mobile
Post by Elwood on Jan 21, 2024 18:01:08 GMT
It is simply coincidence that he (Crazy Horse) arrives just as Keogh and Company I have arrived. He is estimated to have had up to 200 followers with him. You think that Keogh/I were headed south from LST area towards Calhoun Hill to assist the cos. there when CH jumped him? How Co. I ended up by themselves in that ravine/coulee has always been a question for me. Simply to say they were in reserve, as many authors do simply doesn’t quite do it. I can pretty much accept the positions of the other companies but what the heck was I doing there?
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