Mac Map

[miker]

Excellent points about Commander with the rear detachment and what the trail companies were doing.

No one knows. I bet Custer didn't know what was going on.

Light Infantry takes a certain kind of person. My thought on this is Mechanized Infantrymen should be transfered to the Cavalry along with Armor. They fight heavy. Light fights light. Don't let the two mix.

[quincannon]

Point One: I always strive for excellence in my military commentary, but I still sound like Goofy, Donald Duck's Dog. Been hanging around my Scruffy too long I suppose.

Point Two: Truer words have never been spoken concerning this whole sorry affair.

Point Three: Amen Reverend Amen. Let the Glory of God Shine round you, may His angels wait upon your every need, and may your progeny grow wealthy and multiply tenfold. If it rides on tracks or rotors,  carries a gun, and dismounts when it damned well feels like it, it's Cavalry. If it walks most of the time, hitches rides when it can, and is superior to every other being on God's Green Earth it's Light Infantry. Someone should dig up John K. Herr, and shoot the bastard for treason.

[mac]

Let me suggest this: -

Had Reno not stayed doggedly in the valley for so long but rather, when things became too hot, slowly backed away up the valley towards Ford A, drawing the Indians with him. Then Benteen would have had a relatively clear path to Custer. Especially if the message from Custer to Benteen had been carried by a competent messenger.

If we think where Benteen and his forward elements would have been if they were not stopped by Reno; then we can see how Custer may think they are quite near to him.

I believe Custer took his whole force to the Northern Valley (Ford D region). I cannot say exactly how close he got to the river but he certainly retrograded left the valley and regained Cemetery Ridge and Last Stand Hill/ Battle Ridge Extension. My new thought is that he left the Valley because he thought (correctly) that he needed a bigger force. That bigger force would be coming with Benteen and Custer would wait for them in this location. Company L were tasked with finding Benteen and bringing on what Custer wanted at the sharp end.

This is why the Indians saw one group of soldiers (Company L) go over the ridge and instead of stopping like the others, ride away.

More Later.

[rollingthunder]

Jan 26, 2024 5:18:18 GMT mac said:

Let me suggest this: -

Had Reno not stayed doggedly in the valley for so long but rather, when things became too hot, slowly backed away up the valley towards Ford A, drawing the Indians with him. Then Benteen would have had a relatively clear path to Custer. Especially if the message from Custer to Benteen had been carried by a competent messenger.

If we think where Benteen and his forward elements would have been if they were not stopped by Reno; then we can see how Custer may think they are quite near to him.

I believe Custer took his whole force to the Northern Valley (Ford D region). I cannot say exactly how close he got to the river but he certainly retrograded left the valley and regained Cemetery Ridge and Last Stand Hill/ Battle Ridge Extension. My new thought is that he left the Valley because he thought (correctly) that he needed a bigger force. That bigger force would be coming with Benteen and Custer would wait for them in this location. Company L were tasked with finding Benteen and bringing on what Custer wanted at the sharp end.

This is why the Indians saw one group of soldiers (Company L) go over the ridge and instead of stopping like the others, ride away.

More Later.

Could be, Custer preserves with E and F, Cemetery, Custer Hill and BRE. He launches L to find and bring Benteen, and leaves Companies C and I at Battle Ridge waiting for Benteen. It could be, but respecting your idea, I don't think so.

Custer knew that no matter how much Benteen accelerated he couldn't be there within an hour or an hour and a half if things went well. Then they would have to fight hard to cross the river. At least the entire action would take between two and three hours. More than enough time for the women to dismantle the tepees and disperse to the four winds.

If that tactic had gone well, Custer would not have achieved anything important, only dispersed the indians.

[quincannon]

You don't think so Pachi. Neither do I.

Mac:

IF is the biggest word in the English Language. IF Reno could back slowly away to Ford A. Backing slowly toward Ford A was not in the cards immediately upon contact. He either had to turn around and run, or DIP. Given two minutes those that opposed him would have seen that open left flank and headed toward it. At that point there was no slowly doing anything excepting shaking hands with Saint Peter.

In addition I just do not see Benteen doing anything but riding to the sound of Reno's guns had that action still been taking place in the valley. That is where the only fight Benteen knew of was taking place.

I many times disagree with the Arizona Ranger but never when horses and rates of march are concerned. He states it would take hours, and he knows what he is talking about

What do you think those Indians are going to be doing up north when Custer is sitting "WAITING" with his finger up his backside? Custer was on their back porch and they sure as hell were not going to let him wait for anything when he was so close to their back door

Why send a company away to find Benteen, while a very strong enemy force is building up to your front? One man, one pair of eyes, one voice will do quite nicely.

[quincannon]

I believe there is, to borrow a Star Trek term, a Prime Directive that should govern all of our analysis, that being - NEVER TRY TO OVERTHINK THE PROBLEM

We all do it is some form or other, when the realty is that the most likely answer to nearly every possible question is relatively simple. I believe that the so called conventional scenario espoused by the well respected Fred Wagner and others before him, many others, when put under the hard glare of direct light, leaves one thinking there must be something else, something we are not seeing, some reason that would cause Custer to defy logic, experience, and best military practices. I, on the other hand along with a growing number of analysists say no to that. There is nothing more to see. It is all there, laid bare before us.

Both viewpoints start out with the same information. What is already known, is likely to be all that is ever to be known. Everything that has been testified to, or been written down by primary sources is out there for all to examine.

In never trying to overthink the problem one has as a guide the tactics, techniques and procedures that were promulgated to an organized military body, operating under a system of discipline and lawful authority. To put those highfalutin words into simple English - You will do it this way because, as your commander with lawful disciplinary authority over you, I damned well say so. So, given that, it seems simple. Units do what they are trained to do, and officers leading those efforts command and make decisions based on that same training.

Units do what they are trained to do in the manner they are trained to do it. That's why I believe we should never try to overthink an event or indeed the totality of how the affair unfolded. It's simple. There can be no other explanation if you assume that the 7th Cavalry on the 25 of June 1876 was operating according to the doctrinal confines of the period. Some might say, how can you know that. That answer is simple as well. We know it because the seven companies about whom we have intimate knowledge of their actions did it that way. There is absolutely no reason to believe therefore that the other five would operate any differently.

Notice here, that I confined my comments here to units. I am not trying to fathom decision motivation. That knowledge died with the parties involved.

So unless you try to overthink the problem, driving yourself insane in the process, the answer lays before you. Custer went north toward the first available unencumbered fording place in an attempt to make a river crossing and attack, was stopped by hostile action, started a retrograde, which failed due to hostile counteractions was run to ground and defeated in detail. That's what happened. The internals of the activities within that basic set of parameters will never be completely known in detail. There is no indication that the five companies or the battalion as a whole did anything wrong, or that violated their training. There is every indicator that they followed TTP to the letter. The only thing though that everyone must keep in the forefront of the conscience being is - IN BATTLE SOMETIMES YOU EAT THE BEAR, AND AT OTHER TIMES THE BEAR EATS YOU - no matter how well you fought the bear.

[mac]

I have started this just because there are some things that I want others to help me with before I am conveyed to a place for the bewildered.

Benteen and the Valley.

When Benteen reached the point where the Reno trail and the Custer trail divided he was not sure where to go. He spied some of their Indian scouts who indicated he should take the Custer trail.

Had this not happened; I think that before he entered the valley he would have called Martini forward and asked him which way Custer went and then followed that trail.

Martini was a catastrophic choice for a messenger but he could at least have pointed Benteen in the right direction.

Custer sent Company L straight from the Northern Valley towards Calhoun Hill. The rest of the command stayed on the high ground above the valley.

If Custer was retreating South why not simply take all his command away as one mass?

Suggestions please.

I come back to the possibility Company L is to find and speed on Benteen or at least a portion of Benteen's command.

More later.

Cheers

[miker]

In my view, Benteen would have gone left following Reno and been attacked in turn had the scouts not beckoned him to the right.

Apparently Benteen had no use for Martini. Cooke selected him to be the messenger. Interesting since the other messengers sent to Benteen were the chief trumpeter and the sargents major. It baffles me that he was a trumpeter in the first place. Martini was selected By Benteen or his 1SG just to get rid of him. (Although in subsequent service he seems to have been at least above average.) When I selected my jeep driver I selected a soldier who knew how to use the radio, was not afraid to talk on the radio for me, Could read a map, take/relay messages and qualified as expert.

Calhoun was most likely left as a rear guard, even if everyone else went north.



Custer was not retreating. He was driven back from whatever foolishness he was pursuing.

If Calhoun had gone off wandering looking for Bentsen -- or Godot -- he would been destroyed.

[quincannon]

I concur. Benteen, hearing the firing in the valley would have ridden to the sound of the guns in the valley, had not those scouts summoned him to the bluff, which in fact was Custer's route. I think you must dismiss the fact though that it happened to be Custer's route. That was coincidental. Again you must concentrate on what Benteen knew, not what we know. As far as Benteen knew at that point of decision is that he presumed Custer and Reno to be together, and both were engaged at or near the same place.

I chose my drivers for the same reason. Martini was a poor choice.

Do not concur that Company L was a rear guard. As far as Custer knew when he went north there was no need to leave a stationary rear guard. A rear guard on the march maybe. All units on the march have them. That is doctrine.

Custer had been driven back, I have no doubt of that. I believe he made the decision to retreat though, and was in that process when overcome by competing events.

If Calhoun had moved off looking for Benteen, he would have been destroyed, just as he was in the historical outcome. Maybe at a different place, but destroyed nonetheless.

The only chance anyone had of contacting Benteen, based upon what we now know of Indian counter movements, is a fresh fast horse, with a lone rider possessing a bushel basket full of balls, and hopefully the experience to tell Benteen what the situation was so Benteen could act accordingly.

As a side note, and this is speculative on my part. I believe Custer saw enough Indians to his front to determine that even with Benteen up, he did not have anywhere near the combat power to overcome them. With Benteen he would have had less that 350 troopers. With Benteen and the packs that number would increase by about a hundred. He was being faced by at least a thousand Indians, and that completely disregards those that were coming from the Reno fight.

Custer allowed the Indians to not only form on his front, but also drive a wedge between himself and the Regiment (-). Once that happened it was over, unless Custer, upon seeing this moved eastward away from the village. I do not believe he would have been pursued in force. Harassed maybe, but he would have gotten away. Timing is everything. Mere seconds of delay change the course of events.

[miker]

Another tidbit concerning Reno-Benteen-Martini. A good messenger would have told Benteen that Custer had detached Reno with 3 companies in pursuit of some Indians. In fact, both messenger sent back by Custer should have reported that to Benteen. Benteen should have asked, “What else do you know?” Of both of them.

[quincannon]

Concur. Don't think either of those guys were all that bright Kanipe or Martini.

Do not concur about Benteen asking what else do you know. What Benteen should have done from the outset, upon gathering them to his side is say, Tell me everything you goddamned well know about what is happening up front. EVERY GODDAMNED THING. Ignorance ain't bliss when you are about to get shot at.

[miker]

Yes. I would quiz the crap out of the people I sent our on patrol at night. Even if I knew there was nothing out there because we were training all by our lonesome in the local trading area.

In retrospect, I should have sent out more patrols than I did while were training. Of course coming back from border patrols I delivered detailed reports of what we saw.

[quincannon]

Knowledge is power in every walk of life. Knowledge in battle, and there is never enough, is the difference between winning and losing.

[rollingthunder]

Jan 28, 2024 13:26:57 GMT miker said:

 It baffles me that he was a trumpeter in the first place. Martini was selected By Bentsen or his 1SG just to get rid of him. 

hahahahahahaha

[quincannon]

Maybe Martini was the only one on Company H's payroll that could play "Dixie" on a tin tooter. I did say that most answers to seemingly complicated problems are relatively simple. I really must recommend a further perusal of Conan Doyle. The game being afoot, does not mean a trip through Alice's Looking Glass for answers.