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Post by Beth on Apr 16, 2016 1:19:58 GMT
I admit that I am having serious case of CRS today. A wise person would probably stop posting questions right now to maintain their dignity but...
So Terry was always going to travel with the Dakota Column? I guess I sort of thought that Terry came along at the last minute to keep Custer on a leash because Custer traveled to MN (Or was it Chicago) to meet him before traveling to FAL.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Apr 16, 2016 10:10:17 GMT
Beth, MN, as I recall for the meeting. Terry was a bright guy, graduated from Yale Law, an able administrator, and he played well with others. He even participated in a joint services operation during the ACW at Ft. Fisher. His comfort zone was a desk, then it was infantry, I refuse to get into mindsets. I think he felt he should let his subordinates do what they do best.
Crook was in charge of a similar amalgamation of forces coming from the south. Crook canned a Cavalry Col. and replaced him before the Rosebud. Crook may have been more hands on.
Some have felt Sheridan should have accompanied the column as he had in 1868, they forget that Sheridan had been elevated to a new/higher level of command than he was in 1868. Crook and Terry were now at that level.
Your questions today are good and should probably be out front as they are thought provoking.
Regards, Tom
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Post by yanmacca on Apr 16, 2016 11:43:36 GMT
Thanks Dave, so the data I have for those four companies are;
F Company: 1 x Officer 1 x 1st Sgt 5 x Line Sgts 3 x Corporals 1 x Trumpeter 1 x Blacksmith 1 x Saddler 1 x Farrier 32 x Privates (14 men not included) Total: 46 all ranks.
G Company: 2 x Officers 1 x 1st Sgt 4 x Line Sgts 4 x Corporals 2 x Trumpeters 1 x Blacksmith 1 x Saddler 21 x Privates (25 men not included) Total: 36 all ranks.
H Company: 1 x Officer 2 x 1st Sgts (? Is this unusual) 3 x Line Sgts 3 x Corporals 1 x Blacksmith 1 x Saddler 1 x Farrier 29 x Privates (17 men not included) Total: 41 all ranks.
H Company: 3 x Officers 1 x 1st Sgt 5 x Line Sgts 3 x Corporals 2 x Trumpeters 1 x Blacksmith 1 x Saddler 1 x Farrier 32 x Privates (14 men not included) Total: 49 all ranks.
Now the men not included are missing for a multitude of reasons, ranging from sickness, other duties or even in jail, but like the 7th it meant that 70 men were missing for the campaign, but I cannot find any data for their pack train, surly they must have had one, in which case the total number of men in those companies would be further reduced by six per company.
Any way as it stands Custer turned down another 172 men. But wait a minute, I thought that Custer was acting in a scouting role, so surly if Terry gave him an extra 172 men then this boosts his force to nearly 800 men, now this force looks a little too large to be just a scout, it looks like a full blown battle formation.
Yan.
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Post by quincannon on Apr 16, 2016 14:07:12 GMT
Sheridan was a man of 5'5" in stature, with weight in excess of 200 pounds in 1876. He most probably then had the heart condition that would ultimately kill him 12 years later. He was in no sort of physical shape to take the field.
There are ways to offer, then there are ways to offer.
Custer, you don't want to take the 2nd Cavalry, do you?
Custer, you can have the 2nd Cavalry if you think you need them.
If Terry thought the 2nd Cavalry was necessary to Custer's performance of mission, he would have said: Custer you are taking the 2nd Cavalry with you. What, you don't want them, what is it about the star on my shoulder and oak leaf on yours that you do not understand?
I have always, and continue to believe that offer of four companies of the 2nd Cavalry, was not at all serious, would be foolish on Terry's part if it was, and therefore just another piece of ex-post-facto smoke for an after action report.
What would really be interesting is a Custer having to perform under the conditions McKenzie had at Red Fork, a conglomeration of several companies, from several regiments, instead of an all 7th set up. Don't think he could have run over the other people like he did with his own officers. He would have been much more constrained I think.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Apr 16, 2016 14:25:12 GMT
Chuck,
Your last sentence, your last sentence, your last sentence. GAC was a lot of bluster, when Benteen called him out several years earlier, George blinked. As a non officer I am not sure how you guys document a malcontent out. Actually I do, but would if have worked in the same fashion in the 1870's
Regards, Tom
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Post by quincannon on Apr 16, 2016 15:43:26 GMT
Tom: The only one of his officers that had the moral courage to stand toe to toe with George Custer was Benteen.
Don't think there was an overabundance of moral courage in the 2nd and 3rd, but had he attempted to run roughshod over any of McKenzie's officers in the 4th, I think he would have been brought up short.
Custer was insecure in his own skin, and as such had feet of clay when confronted by those who were not afraid to play bet your bars, when they thought they were correct, and that especially goes for tactical issues.
There was a Custer Like at Chipyong-Ni, and one of his battalion commanders, thought he was wrong, the way he intended to employ his troops. He lost the argument, but in disobedience of orders, rode with the company of his that he thought in grave danger. It cost him his life, but he saved most of that company of his. The battalion commander was determined, if he could not change the order, he would share the dangers with his company so ordered. That is why I remarked a month or so ago that the 5th Cavalry in Korea was a lousy outfit as long as they had a shit for brains, petty, arrogant, dipwad of a commander in Marcel Crombez. What he did was well known to others in the regiment, and that regimental commander's days were numbered, he was relieved shortly thereafter, given a nothing job Stateside, promoted to BG, and retired within months.
The causal factor of all this was the regimental commander, a graduate of Class of 25, had not progressed as he thought he should have. The battalion commander was well respected, a fast climber, and in short all the things the regimental commander was not. Any of this sound remotely familiar.
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Post by Beth on Apr 17, 2016 3:30:02 GMT
I tend to think that every officer involved with that 1876 campaign were able men but many were more able during the Civil War and after 10+ years in a postwar army they had grown accustomed to their comfortable desk chairs and cosy houses over saddles and tents. I can't I blamed them. Terry was nearly 40 at the end of the war and perhaps if he had a wife and family he would have retired back to his previous law practice. Custer at the time of LBH was about the age Terry was at the end of the Civil War, perhaps if Custer had lived until 1886 he might have been more comfortable in a less strenuous job.
QC I suspect that history is full of Custer-like commanders. GAC just had a better PR department. He and Libbie were the Karashinans of their age. Can you imagine how many 'selfies' we would have had from the Custers if such a think existed. As it is we have a whole lot of photographs of them during a time when most people had maybe one or two photographs taken over their whole lifetime
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fetterman1876
Civilian
Hi my name is Aaron Lore from Windsor Co. I grew up in Douglas Wyo. and spent many days in this area
Posts: 2
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Post by fetterman1876 on Jan 31, 2018 23:46:04 GMT
A man who understands it is what it is. I actually started this thread on a serious, informational bent. We had a hole on the board under that battle. I hope I at least filled that void. I am not sure this banter should not be removed to behind the scenes! Regards, Tom
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fetterman1876
Civilian
Hi my name is Aaron Lore from Windsor Co. I grew up in Douglas Wyo. and spent many days in this area
Posts: 2
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Post by fetterman1876 on Jan 31, 2018 23:56:12 GMT
You will have to excuse me 1st time on this site. Tom you say this is to fill a void. Do you mean fill a void in the Red Forks fight or that nothing has been posted about it before? Also you say this came from the Wyo. Historical Society which I belong to and I was wondering which publication you got it from? This is a pic from about 2 miles from the site.
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colt45
First Lieutenant
Posts: 439
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Post by colt45 on Feb 1, 2018 0:51:29 GMT
Beautiful picture, Aaron. Welcome to this board. Please contribute more on this subject as you obviously will have much to provide.
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Post by yanmacca on Feb 1, 2018 11:01:13 GMT
Hi Aaron and welcome. Look forward to reading you posts. We here have an open policy which gives the members free reign to discuss any battle or war they wish. We don't discuss the Fetterman fight too often or other battles like the Red Fork fight [aka the Dull Knife fight], so it makes a refreshing change. linkI hope you join in with our discussions. Yan.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Feb 1, 2018 11:13:09 GMT
You will have to excuse me 1st time on this site. Tom you say this is to fill a void. Do you mean fill a void in the Red Forks fight or that nothing has been posted about it before? Also you say this came from the Wyo. Historical Society which I belong to and I was wondering which publication you got it from? This is a pic from about 2 miles from the site. Fetterman1876, I found it online and used it to compare against what I had in "Wooden Leg; : A Warrior Who Fought Custer". Not sure I could find it again. Thank you for the response and welcome.
Regards, Tom
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Post by quincannon on Feb 1, 2018 16:11:54 GMT
Glad you are here Aaron. We must be careful in using Red Fork fight though in that McKenzie was involved in two battles that have similar "Red Fork" names. One is down near Colt's home in the Llano Estacado called the Battle of the North Fork of the Red River, and the other is the one that most concerns you.
The value of the discussion of this fight is that it is a direct counterpoint to Little Big Horn. McKenzie did just about everything right and Custer did just about everything wrong. McKenzie did it with a scratch force of elements of four cavalry regiments, whereas Custer had all of his own (normally something of great value). McKenzie used what weather and nature gave him, whereas Custer tried to force weather and nature to his will. McKenzie identified and attacked the Indian center of gravity with all he had, while Custer tinkered around the edges and at no time set the conditions for an attack that could ever have been decisive. McKenzie had scouts out forty or fifty miles from his main body, gathering information, shaping and preparing the battle space, and Custer contented himself with smelling the horse shit of droppings three or four days past. AND McKENZIE was judged shortly thereafter as being clinically insane. Go figure.
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