|
Post by Beth on Apr 14, 2016 21:14:06 GMT
Perhaps Phil "The only good Indian is a dead Indian" Sheridan didn't want to encourage other officers to follow Crook's lead by using large numbers of Native Americans in campaigns. I don't believe the Montana Column had a large number of scouts. Terry didn't seem to feel to feel a need to add more Natives
|
|
mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
|
Post by mac on Apr 14, 2016 21:57:05 GMT
It seems to me Custer only trusted what he personally saw.Remember he was told at the Crows Nest that there was a very big village. He could not see it and proceeded as if it did not exist. Otherwise he would not have given away the valley. Cheers
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Apr 14, 2016 22:13:07 GMT
The point is that Sheridan as a theater commander did not have any business involving himself in tactical and operational matters at the divisional level and below, any more than Eisenhower would have any business as commander of the ETO telling John Wood how to run the 4th Armored Division, or Creighton Abrams how to run his combat command of that division.
Professionals are supposed to be professional, and you hire them because they are supposed to know what they are doing.
Terry did not know B from a bull's butt about fighting Indians. Custer probably knew even less. Crook had relevant recent experience down south. He knew how to use Indians as force multipliers AND scouts. He had to feel his way into the northern theater, because fighting Cheyenne and Sioux is different from Apache. After gaining that theater specific experience at Rosebud, he fought them his way and won.
Read "On The Border With Crook" The man did not make many mistakes, and combatting Apaches is a far more intellectually vexing problem, than Sioux and Cheyenne. They only require giving them a good kick in the ass to beat them. You can kick the Apache in the ass until the second coming, and they will come back at you tomorrow kicking and scratching. Much better fighters, man for man, band for band.
|
|
|
Post by Beth on Apr 14, 2016 23:56:48 GMT
The point is that Sheridan as a theater commander did not have any business involving himself in tactical and operational matters at the divisional level and below, any more than Eisenhower would have any business as commander of the ETO telling John Wood how to run the 4th Armored Division, or Creighton Abrams how to run his combat command of that division. Professionals are supposed to be professional, and you hire them because they are supposed to know what they are doing. Terry did not know B from a bull's butt about fighting Indians. Custer probably knew even less. Crook had relevant recent experience down south. He knew how to use Indians as force multipliers AND scouts. He had to feel his way into the northern theater, because fighting Cheyenne and Sioux is different from Apache. After gaining that theater specific experience at Rosebud, he fought them his way and won. Read "On The Border With Crook" The man did not make many mistakes, and combatting Apaches is a far more intellectually vexing problem, than Sioux and Cheyenne. They only require giving them a good kick in the ass to beat them. You can kick the Apache in the ass until the second coming, and they will come back at you tomorrow kicking and scratching. Much better fighters, man for man, band for band. Dang I put that Crook book down a while back and never got back to it. I need to go back and finish it. I do agree Custer trusted very few people and the scouts were not on the trusted confidant list.
|
|
|
Post by deadwoodgultch on Apr 15, 2016 0:47:07 GMT
This battle is the way a battle should be conducted. Information and intelligence are a must. It was lacking at the LBH. From the 24th on it was a custer puck.
Regards, Tom
|
|
azranger
Brigadier General
Ranger
Posts: 1,824
|
Post by azranger on Apr 15, 2016 12:39:42 GMT
Tom
I think it is worse than lacking. I think it was determined it was not needed based upon a belief regarding the Indians. The only thing Custer wanted was to get close to the Indians and it would not take many in regards to scouts to do that and it is what the scouts did for him.
The evidence I believe to support my position is Custer turning down any support outside the 7th.
Regards
Steve
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Apr 15, 2016 13:21:14 GMT
Agreed AZ.
And the moral of the story is you had better be prepared with sufficient combat power, when you get what you wish for.
|
|
|
Post by yanmacca on Apr 15, 2016 16:02:33 GMT
Custer wanted to keep things mobile and treat this as a mission for the seventh only, so that is evident in his refusal to take the Gatling’s and the extra companies from another regiment.
Yan.
|
|
|
Post by Beth on Apr 15, 2016 19:36:39 GMT
I understand his not taking the Gatlings--they would have been more effort than their worth. They just weren't made for that type of country. For the life of me I can't remember if he was offered extra cavalry, which would be foolish to turn down or infantry, which perhaps one could justify as not being able to keep up with the speed Custer moved. Heaven forbid that Custer think about slowing down and not neutralize his two most valuable resources with exhaustion.
|
|
dave
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,679
|
Post by dave on Apr 15, 2016 20:31:39 GMT
Beth Custer was offered 4 companies of the 2nd Cavalry which he turned down. Regards Dave
|
|
|
Post by yanmacca on Apr 15, 2016 21:11:52 GMT
Dave which four companies were they because I have a break down of the strength of that regiment, I think nine companies took to the field and were split between two columns.
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Apr 15, 2016 21:32:14 GMT
The foolish thing was offering Custer those four companies and the Gatling guns in the first place.
With them Terry's portion of the expedition was the most tactically flexible, being composed of all arms. Without the horse and guns, that column was both blind and toothless.
If you are willing to give away all your teeth and the one eye you have remaining, why not just keep the entire column together? It would have taken more time to find, but you retain your flexibility to take the next step after finding
Crook at Red Fork was a combined arms force, and he used it as such. Crook was a pro. Terry was a lawyer.
|
|
|
Post by Beth on Apr 15, 2016 21:43:04 GMT
Sometimes I wonder if Terry realized that he really was the one in charge. If Terry had not accompanied the Dakota Column who would have actually been in charge? Or would have the Montana and Dakota columns just worked independently of each other.
|
|
|
Post by deadwoodgultch on Apr 15, 2016 23:48:08 GMT
Beth, Terry was in overall command of both columns, they operated as two independent commands under Terry's orders. Witness the divergent approaches to the LBH. Had Custer remained on the sidelines due to Grant, Reno was considered for command, but more likely a more senior detached 7th officer would have been brought in, there is even an outside chance a Col. from another regiment could have been brought in. That was long winded way of saying the two columns operated separately, which would not preclude sharing resources and manpower at any given time, Terry could have mandated it. It was done all the time and regularly throughout the remainder of the Great Sioux War.
Regards, Tom
|
|
dave
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,679
|
Post by dave on Apr 16, 2016 1:09:26 GMT
Yan I am guilty of sloppy scholarship because I could not ID the 2nd Cavalry companies with the Terry Column so I began looking. Gibbon's Column had the 2nd Cavalry companies: F, G, H, L Crook's Column had the 2nd Cavalry companies: A, B, D, E, I The three remaining companies C, K, M are unaccounted for and there begins my research.
I went through both Strategies and Participants by Fred Wagner and could not discover the elusive information. I moved to my oldest source and began reading and I believed I discovered the answer. In Colonel Graham's The Custer Myth within The Narrative of 1st Sgt John M Ryan published in the Hardin Montana Tribune on June 22, 1923 on page 240 it mentions that when Terry and Gibbon met prior to Custer's departure that Major Brisbane and his four companies, F, G, H, L were offered and Custer declined. I believe we have solved that little mystery. Regards Dave
The Custer Myth Colonel W. A. Graham Bonanza Books 1953
|
|