azranger
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Post by azranger on Oct 1, 2021 15:18:40 GMT
I think the topography shows they are shooting in all directions, except maybe West. Maybe two columns, but I'm torn with how far South toward Ford B they go. If two troops go to the Ford, then they are out of supporting distance. It is also my view there is no opposition to the West yet and there was apparently little when they came BACK from Ford D. If they moved, why did the enemy not grab them by the belt? Once you touch the enemy, don't let go. I have a lot to do to work out routes and timing. Mike
The three eyewitnesses including two from the 7th Cavalry and a scout place them close to the MTF. I think one could reject MTF due to the terrain features. I think they even sent a detail to look at the substrate. I don't think the two companies got closer than around 600 yards. Just out of range of the Indian weapon systems.
So without crossing they could be slowing the crossing while CIL moves up to Luce and across Nye Cartwright. I think if they continued north in parallel lines they are within 550 to 700 yards. It would not take long to close that distance from a horse.
I believe it is the presence of the Indians to the east that slowed the northern movement long enough for others to cross MTC and help apply pressure. Some moved north toward NC and some followed Custer with E and F.
Regards
Steve
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Post by yanmacca on Oct 2, 2021 13:20:57 GMT
We do have Indian accounts of the whole column moving out of sight past the monument, which means that they all went north, I can only find one account of a rear guard being left on Calhoun hill.
There maybe an option of the whole column reaching Cemetery ridge, and two going forward, one two had been detached to the fords, one was sent back as a stopping point for Benteen to reach and the column to return to if the mission fails, but this is pure spectulation from my point.
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Post by yanmacca on Oct 2, 2021 13:28:44 GMT
I have circled (green & blue) four fire points used by the Indians to probably shoot at the column, these are all in MTC, so I would guess that these are the focus of the any fire by the column. We have not mentioned these fire points for a while, so it will give the new guys a chance to add any comments on them.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2021 13:44:19 GMT
Interesting. I have real trouble seeing the Red dots. All the circled fires are South. The Indian fire seems very small in comparison to the Cavalry fire, but does not prove that it wasn't significant.
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Oct 2, 2021 14:36:10 GMT
I have circled (green & blue) four fire points used by the Indians to probably shoot at the column, these are all in MTC, so I would guess that these are the focus of the any fire by the column. We have not mentioned these fire points for a while, so it will give the new guys a chance to add any comments on them.
Ian None of the Indian sites are in MTC. They are north of MTC and south of Deep Coulee. The fastest way to get to them from the Big Village would be is to move up from the river where there is a current day two track road to Nye Cartwright. Weibert had marked the sites with labeled metal stakes. We rode to them and took pictures. The sites provide cover from the direction of heavy fire indicated on the map. I agree with Mike in that there is low numbers of Indian artifacts. This private property outside the NPS property and we don't know how thorough the sites were looked at. It appears to me that details were sent to flank those positions. Only one soldier skeletal remains was recovered on NC. I think would I state that the map is what was known to the author and there is no statement as to quality or reliability of the finds. Regards Steve
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2021 15:42:04 GMT
Steve, Does your map show any artifacts near Ford B?
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Oct 3, 2021 5:37:04 GMT
Steve, Does your map show any artifacts near Ford B? I think I can only see a few near the ford. The Realbirds who own the land claim to have picked up buckets of cases and sold them to the public. My friend found a carbine barrel sticking out the water near there. This is a very large watershed and I would not expect to find many cases in the active waterway. In my theory they never went close enough to be within Indian fire from across the river. A detail may have checked out the ford. The distance I believe there was activity includes Cpl Foley and Sgt Butler. It continues north and then there is a Indians sites on Greasy Grass. I think those were later in the battle against F/F. From there they either moved up toward the Calhoun Area or moved across to Deep Ravine and then moved east. Did you receive Tom's gift? Regards Steve
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2021 8:58:36 GMT
I have read some Indians report that some troopers may have checked out the banks and even gone into the river. A detail that moves to check out the ford is close enough to shoot at, even though the main body may be too far away to be effectively engaged by the Indian weapons. When conducting route reconnaissance, we were supposed to measure the bridge, go into the water to examine the supports, determine the materials, determine the weight class (even though all bridges in Europe carry a weight classiffication. Actually 2, one on the roadway and one underneath. They were not always the same, the one underneath was accepted as the 'real' one. We were also supposed to find a ford (many bridges in Europe were at a previous ford site) or there was one relatively near. Had to determine water speed, depth, type of river bed, entrance and exit and look for mines, especially if the bridge was blown. It is a neat trick to place mines in the ford as well as the approaches. Sometimes a tilt rod on an AT Mine will give away the locations, but if they are underwater, not so much. (Not that there ever were any mines there in peacetime.
On the other hand, the fence between East and West Germany was mined and there used to be mines between the fence and the actual border - the border could be right on the fence line or as far as 100-200m away or even further depending on fields of fire. Some of the border stones were mined. They were supposed to have removed the mines in the dirt, but no one thought they got them all. You only have to think you are in a minefield to have an exciting day.))
Pity they don't say how many buckets or on what sides of the ford they found them and whose they were.
Not yet.
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Oct 3, 2021 16:11:43 GMT
The Real Birds are still there and there homes are on the west bank of the river. You can ride from their property across Ford B. Once across you are where their horses graze. In June there is cavalry school right at Ford B. At the end of the school the attendees participate in the Real Bird reenactment. I call it a pageant and it briefly goes through history and how we messed things up.
My friend Michael Bad Hand explained to me how we effed things up. The men would hunt and fish, ride horses, and fight. The women did all the work. Put up and take down the tipi, process the game meat, prepare meals and gather food in the plant communities.
The last ride I took on Real Bird horses was with Will Hutchison. It was about three hours and cost $80. That is really cheap. The ride starts and ends at Ford B. You cross and move south along the river until you hit the boundary fence for the Reno/Benteen battlefield. From there you cross the park road and move north. The ride goes down Cedar Coulee to MTC. Due to the erosion in MTC you must turn west down MTC until you reach Middle Coulee. From there you go straight across and reach NC. There is a T intersection and you turn to the west until you reach the river.
Regards
Steve
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Post by yanmacca on Oct 3, 2021 18:34:39 GMT
As it is mentioned a lot on this thread, I have decided to show the new members just where "middle coulee" is, along with the other two. P.S. the arrows come from a past thread, and show one of the routes the column may have took.
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