|
Post by yanmacca on Sept 26, 2021 19:15:10 GMT
I could add that Benteen taking forward his battalion to find Custer, is what caused the seige of Reno hill, would the Indians had gone back and give them 24 hours of hell if Benteen had not ventured forward? But this is for another thread.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2021 19:07:13 GMT
I measured the distance for the hill defined by the 3300 meter contour line on the pictomap above. From the tip of the bulge on the upper left to the end of the ridge on the far right is about 300 meters. I then determined the occupied length of the screen line on Nye-Cartwright to be about 650 meters, The small line in the closed 3300 meter contour just above the words Luce Ridge to be 150 meters, the staggered "W" skirmis line to be 375 meters, and the small group south of the 3300 contour line to be about 80 meters, for a total length of 1175 meters or just over 1km. The refused flank on Nye-Cartwright is not included in the length above, it would probably add another 300 meters to the line. If you assume a 5 meter interval between troopers, that works out to 235 troops on the Skirmish line. That would take all 5 companies of the Custer battalion to man, assuming an average strength of 40 troopers per company. If you assume a 10 meter mounted screen line than that is about 118 or about the strength of the "Keogh" wing. It looks like there are 100s of cartridges identified on the screen line. On the small line above the words "Luce" Ridge I count 20 - 25 over 180 meters. If that is average density, I find something like 130 - 163 over the whole line, but that does not look right. I'd estimate the total cartridges here are actually closer to 600 - 1000. Maybe more. The rate of fire of the carbine is said to be 8 - 10 rounds per minute. Regardless of the number of troops on the line, if they fired between 600 - 1200 rounds, it could be over in less than a minute. If it was a longer action, it could have been longer, perhaps 5 - 10 minutes. I suppose this number of rounds fired as volleys could account for the 2 or 3 volleys heard by people on the Reno fighting position. I am not sure of the timing. Some other observations. the West (left) screen light looks to me as if they are occupying the Northern Military Crest of Nye-Cartwright. The right hand screen line looks to be occupying the Southern Military Crest of Luce Ridge. The small Group (above the words "Luce Ridge" seems to be facing North as that looks uncovered to me. Not sure what the small unit 4 - 12 guys (?) is doing. The rear guard for the force withdrawing from Ford B? The little Blob below the left hand skirmish line could be the command group or it could be group sent forward to get a better view of the terrain below. No markers are apparently on these ridges. Wagner - somewhat reluctantly - nominates Smith for getting killed in the vicinity of Ford B since his body was not found after the battle, nor was Sturgis or Harrington. with other E Company soldiers, but on Last Stand Hill. Harrington, Porter, and Sturgis were not identified on the field. (I incorrectly thought Smith's body was not recovered/identified.)I don't really believe the Google View Shed line of sight diagram because for both Calhoun Hill and Nye-Cartwright Ridge, it shows pretty much unlimited visibility out to the maximum distance displayed by Google Earth. All you need to find cover is an 18 - 24 inch dip in the terrain and you can protect yourself from observation and some direct fire. While I have never been to Montana, I have been to Kansas and Fort Riely has some similar terrain and it can be very deceptive. Kansas is by and large, not flat, though it gets much flatter as you get near the Colorado border. If this is a single skirmish line, I think it supports five companies going to Ford D. Perhaps not all at once. two or three could have been used as a rear guard, bounding past each other. That would, I think, support an order of march of F, E, I, C, L It could be separate lines occupied by 3 companies, moving to the NW. If they were worried about Indians coming up from Ford B, then I think they would have been oriented differently. In this case, I would have E and F south toward the Ford and I,C, L occupying the successive screen lines, but again, in that case I think at least the left (west) line would be oriented SE toward Ford B. I do like the position of the closed larger 3300 meter contour as a defensive position, better than any place to the NW or SE until you get to Reno Hill. I guess there was some fire directed from the North. Or I could be misreading the terrain and both lines are facing south. EDIT: At any rate, this is how I see the situation about 1400 Local Time.
|
|
|
Post by deadwoodgultch on Sept 30, 2021 12:14:17 GMT
Mike, we discussed this action some time ago, we concluded a moving screen or box. Lead company, say stops to screen as the remaining four companies pass and then the next company and so on.
I believe that a body was in fact found in that area while Luce was superintendent, I may be wrong here, as I can not recall where I read it.
Regards, Tom
|
|
azranger
Brigadier General
Ranger
Posts: 1,824
|
Post by azranger on Sept 30, 2021 16:22:00 GMT
I would like to back up a bit on the scan with a picture I took.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2021 16:42:43 GMT
Thanks Tom. STEVE! That seems maybe a little clearer. I apologize. I wasn't wearing my glasses when I rep;liled this morning and was still asleep.
|
|
azranger
Brigadier General
Ranger
Posts: 1,824
|
Post by azranger on Sept 30, 2021 16:56:54 GMT
So I need to go back and read the comments to catch up but I wanted show where you could move down Middle Coulee go straight across MTC to the obvious egress and then move east and move up the foot of the artifacts. I call it a Running W because it has the foot leading back toward NFMTC. I am using branding nomenclature to come up with the Running W.
I rode this with my friend and the w is formed by the rock formation preventing western movement until you move over toward Nye Cartwright. At that point you could send a detail to flank the Indians to west. The same could be said to the detail to east. The firing from the foot of the W can only be toward the north fork of MTC. That would be the returning Cheyenne hunting party. The relatives had taken Chris Dixon to the location but they didn't know much other than the location where they were shown contact being made. The artifacts are consistent with the Cheyenne oral history. Wilbert who discovered several of the Indians firing sites formed an opinion that even mounted a person can only shoot toward NFMTC but he could not find artifacts in the drainage of NFMTC.
The western detail would be firing at those Cheyennes and Sioux that came across MTF. The returning Cheyenne hunting party would be firing at the rear of the soldiers. To the east could be Wolf Tooth depending upon where he first engaged. Wolf Tooth would be coming from the east . These Indian forces left the front open which moved toward the Cheyenne end of the village. Every one of these Oral History accounts have actual artifact findings on the map.
Now back to catching up.
Regards
Steve
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Sept 30, 2021 17:11:11 GMT
Which way (s) were/was Custer's battalion firing? The answer to that question has a dramatic impact on the flow of the remainder of the battle. Pretty sure that those Indians involved at the L-N-C site were not large in relative numbers, but they did hold, or potentially hold positional advantage, and sometimes positional advantage means more than sheer numbers ever will in terms of the direction battles take.
Considering the action along Luce-Nye-Cartwright gives me a very uneasy feeling that Ford D was never in play, nor B for that matter. Much like DC in that regard.
Consider this. Custer is beset on all sides by small numbers of hostiles while he is in the L-N-C position. In an effort to shake them off he moves north with the intention of braking contact, and consolidating, then seeing what develops. His column is strung out along Battle Ridge and the furtherest point of his advance is Cemetery Ridge, with some spill over on Battle Ridge extension. He is stopped at the base of CR, and moves toward the rear, with a company (most probably E) holding on CR (on a temporary basis). Realizing he can go no further, he starts to move south, back along the ridge, sending first Company L and following with C and I in sequence. Meanwhile the pressure to his front overwhelms first E then F, and the position he was trying to hold temporarily collapses, probably exacerbated by the loss of their horses. At that point it is all over but the dying. This is very close to Dan's theory, and it gains merit with each consideration of it.
|
|
azranger
Brigadier General
Ranger
Posts: 1,824
|
Post by azranger on Sept 30, 2021 18:15:35 GMT
I think it was only three companies and they were on the move north. It is a series of stops and firing with only one body found of a soldier. The marker placed by Weibert to the west marking the Indian firing site had great cover and concealment. The soldiers could not move in that direction until they clear the ledge that formed the artifact Running W. I believe it was suppression fire until they reached the movement toward Nye Cartwright. There is a lot of preservation land in this area and now it is control of the Hardin Museum. I have a life time pass and they will honor those. Also my Crow friend can go anywhere.
According to Donahue the other two companies moved up the north side of Deep Coulee and they joined at the Calhoun Area. He believes they left CIL at the Calhoun area and only moved north with E, F and HQ.
Regards
Steve
|
|
azranger
Brigadier General
Ranger
Posts: 1,824
|
Post by azranger on Sept 30, 2021 18:20:37 GMT
I believe Custer along with E and F crossed MTC and crossed Deep Coulee. From there Donahue has Custer move to the Calhoun Area nut I believe he headed north toward Deep Ravine.
At the NC location there are Indians sites both east and west. It appears the Indians increased fire the further north on west side. That be from individual fire or from an increase in numbers coming from MTC.
Honey do's are in order so see you later on.
Regards
Steve
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Sept 30, 2021 18:44:49 GMT
Well then, if you follow that line of reasoning you also dismiss reaching Ford D, at least reaching it anywhere in the valley floor. No commander gives up high ground in such a situation, and would only do it if he felt confident that in so doing he had superior, or at least enough combat power to prevail in the lower elevations.
The only thing I see here that would throw a wrench in this theory is Red Hawk's tale of the three companies moving southward along the ridge, with a lone rider proceeding them in time and space. Leaving three companies in the Calhoun Hill area does not fit with that tale. It would fit though if those three companies were further north toward Last Stand Hill, and reversed course, or were forced to reverse course. What can be assured I think is that E and F stayed in the northern position for a reason. They were still mobile at that juncture. So what was the reason? The only thing that readily comes to mind is a delay, and most likely a delay from subsequent positions. Logic would then conclude they were delaying for somebody, and having three companies back on Calhoun Hill does not fit that hypothesis, More likely under those circumstances Companies E and F would rapidly withdraw with the objective of consolidating with the other three companies.
In studying this variation of events, the routes taken are of little importance. The issue of paramount importance is the general direction of travel. Intention would be nice too, but that will never be determined. It could be breaking contact. It could be consolidation. It could be continuation of attack. It could be a run for the tall and uncut. It will never be known, as there was no one left to tell us.
Events that seem mutually exclusive, even at this late date, usually are just that, mutually exclusive. That, and human beings, even military human beings ALWAYS do things for a reason. While the reason may prove to be a bad one when those of our time view it, one must logically conclude that the reason seemed a good one, or the only option available at the time of execution.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2021 21:10:05 GMT
I think the topography shows they are shooting in all directions, except maybe West.
Maybe two columns, but I'm torn with how far South toward Ford B they go. If two troops go to the Ford, then they are out of supporting distance. It is also my view there is no opposition to the West yet and there was apparently little when they came BACK from Ford D. If they moved, why did the enemy not grab them by the belt? Once you touch the enemy, don't let go.
I have a lot to do to work out routes and timing.
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Sept 30, 2021 21:27:40 GMT
It's my personal view at this time that no one got closer to Ford B than Butler Ridge, and if I had to lay money on it that is probably the place where Martini was dispatched from. I suspect Kanipe left a few moments before, and his leaving was probably a result of the first part of the firefight, when at least Tom Custer realized the trains were in jeopardy if they were not being covered by somebody.
Both of them leaving and their remarks when reaching the trains and Benteen would lead one to believe that the Indians were hitting a running, which in turn suggests a mobile battle being fought. Unless Custer had a good handle on the numbers of the opposition he was facing I highly doubt he would turn his back on them and go to B. Splitting at that point into roughly 80-130 gives the other guys an opportunity that would be hard to resist, and even if they were not in great numbers, a highly mobile and spread thin opposition can give each of those separate entities of cavalry fits, and the risk of defeat in detail is greatly magnified.
|
|
mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
|
Post by mac on Oct 1, 2021 8:03:47 GMT
A couple of quick things. As QC says we have Red Hawk account and JSIT account. Wolf Tooth never suggests he and his crew had any great impact on Custer at this time, no accounts say that. Looking at the artifacts on the map I see only a small number of warrior sites but lots of cavalry firing. I think this reflects lack of fire control by the cavalry in the face of a few close incursions, using the terrain, by some small numbers of warriors. I also suggest the cavalry sent out small groups of men (clusters of artifacts addressing warrior positions near crests) to chase off these warriors.
Must go now. Cheers
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2021 14:08:12 GMT
I'm seeing some timing issues as I look at Fred's timelines and try to reconcile them with time/distance relationships. Let's not get into a fight at this point about whether Fred is right or wrong. There are some times that can serve as anchors, like Weirs arrival at Weir Pont and observations of LSH that can help us out here. Here is a partial list. *Custer departs Calhoun Hill about 1430 *L CO deploys on Calhoun Hill about 1428 *Custer at Ford D at about 1445. *Weir arrives at Weir Peaks at about 1454 and observes battle in progress at LSH? *L CO Destroyed at 1518 *Custer arrives on Custer Hill about 1516 *The battle ends at about 1543, I haven't worked out the time and distance relationships yet, but the events as listed seem incompatible with the movement of 5 companies toward Ford D. For example, How can Calhoun move toward Ford D, probably as tail end Charlie, with Custer Arriving at there at 1445, but he is deployed and left behind at 1428? This timing appears particularly problematic if Custer moves to Ford D by bounds. Now this is moving beyond a discussion of the Bonaface Map, so I am going to open a new thread by copying this point in the Ford D topic. Let's switch the discussion there and refrain from posting here.
In order to having to skip between multiple threads, and avoid filling this one with spurious comments, I'd like a moderator or admin to please lock this thread.
|
|
azranger
Brigadier General
Ranger
Posts: 1,824
|
Post by azranger on Oct 1, 2021 15:05:47 GMT
Well then, if you follow that line of reasoning you also dismiss reaching Ford D, at least reaching it anywhere in the valley floor. No commander gives up high ground in such a situation, and would only do it if he felt confident that in so doing he had superior, or at least enough combat power to prevail in the lower elevations. I have learned in investigations not to dismiss something without fact. It may be become less likely. On that I would agree. I use the term Ford Ds since they are numerous from the ford at Deep Ravine all the way around to Sioux Ford as represented on the McElfish map. The Sioux Ford would be close to where Willy Bend lived.
What I recall is the thread regarding the 5 companies had you and Colt explaining one of the ways it could be done. I believe Colt stated they would move across CR and BRE in mutual support. That made sense and there are artifacts on supporting the theory.
From what I have been learning from Indian oral history is that the offensive action by Custer ended before he was fully into the valley. Their accounts have him stopped close to Gibbons crossing and the Kellogg marker site along the old entrance road. How far soldiers went out BRE north is also under investigation. The markers seen by an NPS employee were there before the building of the Custer Battlefield Trading Post.
The only thing I see here that would throw a wrench in this theory is Red Hawk's tale of the three companies moving southward along the ridge, with a lone rider proceeding them in time and space. Leaving three companies in the Calhoun Hill area does not fit with that tale. It would fit though if those three companies were further north toward Last Stand Hill, and reversed course, or were forced to reverse course. What can be assured I think is that E and F stayed in the northern position for a reason. They were still mobile at that juncture. So what was the reason? The only thing that readily comes to mind is a delay, and most likely a delay from subsequent positions. Logic would then conclude they were delaying for somebody, and having three companies back on Calhoun Hill does not fit that hypothesis, More likely under those circumstances Companies E and F would rapidly withdraw with the objective of consolidating with the other three companies. I agree. If all 5 companies went as far north of LSH with some moving out BRE and others across CR and then a retrograde began we could see exactly what the markers indicate on the field. There are of course other theories that would fit the available evidence of markers, artifacts, and oral history.In studying this variation of events, the routes taken are of little importance. The issue of paramount importance is the general direction of travel. Intention would be nice too, but that will never be determined. It could be breaking contact. It could be consolidation. It could be continuation of attack. It could be a run for the tall and uncut. It will never be known, as there was no one left to tell us. Moving north of LSH occurred and supported by artifacts on BRE and on the old entrance road leading to CR. Since we have the markers we know there was a North to South movement at some time before they were fixed and destroyed. Events that seem mutually exclusive, even at this late date, usually are just that, mutually exclusive. That, and human beings, even military human beings ALWAYS do things for a reason. While the reason may prove to be a bad one when those of our time view it, one must logically conclude that the reason seemed a good one, or the only option available at the time of execution. I agree. Under stress the urge for flight may influence the choices made. I don't think that E company was running into the Big Village. I believe that they were attempting to go back the way they came from MTC. They went to far down Deep Ravine and it all ended at the Deep Gully.
Regards
Steve
|
|