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Post by deadwoodgultch on Aug 12, 2021 21:43:46 GMT
Wow, after all the talk about Marines on the preceding pages, it seems the cabal in DC, is sending them in to pull their chestnuts out of the fire in Kabul,as fears for the safety of our personnel there begins to loom large. The cabal I allude to seems to be run by Bozo the clown. I understand the Taliban is now burning women whose hair shows, maybe that is just rumor.
I would like to thank the board member who taught me the word cabal, earlier this year.
Regards, Tom
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2021 22:05:17 GMT
I should think the 82nd would be a better choice, not because I think they are better fighters than the Marines, but because Kabul is a long way from the sea. If Afghanistan was on the ocean and the capital on the coast, then it would be Marines. If Pakistan was our friend, which I think neither they or Saudi Arabia are, and Kabul was within range of AH-64/UH-60/CH-47 then I'd use them. Although, if in Pakistan, than the USMC with their V-22s/CH-53s and their own fixed wing aircraft could well be my force of choice.
As for the Taliban tactics, were I them, I would be all over the US forces, holding them by the belt. Punishing them every step of the way. The Afghanistan Anabasis and I wouldn't doubt we might have to fight our way through Pakistan.
EDIT: I bet the Khyber Pass is no fun.
Maybe the 'stans are a better choice for withdrawal. As Little Orphan Annie sang, "It's a hard knock life for us."
At any rate, the real bitch here is protecting the airhead as you get the people out. An issue highlighted long ago in the opening vignette in Robert Heinlein's Starship Troopers.
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Post by quincannon on Aug 12, 2021 22:59:57 GMT
There is no good way to do it Mike. Kabul won't last a month, and it should once again be an object lesson that there are limitations on power. These limitations become severe limitations when the only way power can be projected is from the outside looking in (exterior lines). I think, but am not sure if it is true, that Heinlein based part of that story on the evacuation of Na San. I am sure it was on your military reading list as it was on mine, as it outlined and was a road map for military policy for the next three of decades. To no avail I might add. Regardless, it is a classic work of military doctrine, in novel form. Another such work is "War In 2020" which is similar in theme.
I agree about the 82nd being the unit of (at least my) choice. Better organized for that type of operation than anyone else.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2021 23:40:54 GMT
There is no good way for us to intervene ANYWHERE if it is not close to the sea. Drop the Paratroopers in, they fight their way to the beach where the USMC is waiting to receive them. Better yet perhaps, pay someone else we don't like to fight those other people we don't like. It seems we don't learn anything about insurgency in far off places, starting with the Indian Wars from the moment Europeans illeagelly immigrated to the Americas. I was recently told to read Discourses on Livy by Machiavelli. The Prince didn't do much for me, but this grabbed my by the throat. I've read Livy several times, and I might have to read it again after I finish discourses. Na San was never talked about to me. I have to look it up. So many books, games, models. So little time.
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Post by quincannon on Aug 13, 2021 0:03:07 GMT
Checking the force to be inserted it consists of two marine battalions and an Army battalion, all three of which are in the Central Command AO already. Faster that way, but from a unity of command perspective it would seem better if it was all one or the other. You go with what you have at hand though.
Na San was a base Aero Terrestre the French established in 1954. They barely got out by the skin of their teeth, but that is what directly led to the idea that they could establish a stronger more resilient Base Aero Terrestre at a little place in the backwoods called Dien Bien Phu, and we know how that turned out.
Yes illegal immigration will get you every time. Of course we could send so called "native Americans" back where they came from too, via the land bridge, and leave the damned place to the rattlesnakes and Grizzlies.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2021 0:17:53 GMT
Checking the force to be inserted it consists of two marine battalions and an Army battalion, all three of which are in the Central Command AO already. Faster that way, but from a unity of command perspective it would seem better if it was all one or the other. You go with what you have at hand though. Na San was a base Aero Terrestre the French established in 1954. They barely got out by the skin of their teeth, but that is what directly led to the idea that they could establish a stronger more resilient Base Aero Terrestre at a little place in the backwoods called Dien Bien Phu, and we know how that turned out. Yes illegal immigration will get you every time. Of course we could send so called "native Americans" back where they came from too, via the land bridge, and leave the damned place to the rattlesnakes and Grizzlies.
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Post by quincannon on Aug 13, 2021 1:43:56 GMT
Your choices of reading material are a bit heavier than my Superman Comics Mike. Neither one of those guys Livy or Machiavelli make for light before bedtime reading. Sort of like Gone With The Wind. They will give you a case of the vapors before Scarlet can say Fiddly Dee.
I hate that book by the way, and Margret Mitchell should give back every dime she ever earned for literary malpractice, and defamation of chitlins.
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Post by yanmacca on Aug 13, 2021 5:29:13 GMT
The reports through the BBC are mixed, they have reporters actually in the towns captured by the Taliban. Some Taliban leaders are sticking to extreme shi law, whilst others are more relaxed, one leader said the women didn't need to ware burka's.
The war was unwinnable, a reporter spoke to one of the tribal leaders who was neutral, he said "who do we support, the government rob us, the Taliban beat us and the UN bomb us"
I would guess that the Taliban will let the western allies get their people out, to them the west is beaten, their focus is murdering the Afghani government and taking over the whole country.
Pakistan is a terrible place, the northern states which border Afghanistan are a no-go place for the paki army, they are under the control of the Pakistani Taliban.
These regions are beyond help from the west, all they want is our aid money, they will always be controlled by militants and tribal forces.
Get the hell out and hope that India stays strong against the Muslim militant extremist.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2021 7:41:13 GMT
Your choices of reading material are a bit heavier than my Superman Comics Mike. Neither one of those guys Livy or Machiavelli make for light before bedtime reading. Sort of like Gone With The Wind. They will give you a case of the vapors before Scarlet can say Fiddly Dee. I hate that book by the way, and Margret Mitchell should give back every dime she ever earned for literary malpractice, and defamation of chitlins. The really heavy reading are the 'simple' books I read about stuff like quantum physics and simulation modeling. My math skills were never what I thought they were and I switched from engineering to history. But like the Catholic Church, Ranger School (departed after Heat Stroke, very embarrassing for Florida-boy in the northern, freezing, summer climate of Fort Benning), and the 11th Armored Cavalry Regiment, the preparation ruined me for life. I managed to avoid reading that book and could never watch the whole movie as well as some other well known 'classics'.
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Post by quincannon on Aug 13, 2021 11:22:30 GMT
The whole idea of "going into" Afghanistan with a large military force and intending to stay until we could transform a Dark Age society into something resembling a modern representative democracy was nothing but a waste of lives and treasure Ian. It was just like Vietnam in terms of supporting the corrupt leavings of the French in the ill conceived hope that the Truman doctrine had any merit. As such every man and woman who perished in those two conflicts were lives wasted, and dreams unfulfilled.
Both Vietnam and Afghanistan were Hadrian's and Antonine's Wall operations that only required the barbarians be patient until the Romans decided that they had spent enough time and lives keeping them at bay, and left. When you fight wars on the far frontier, the idea is to kill them quick, then go. There will be no Bar B Que afterwards, no swimming pools and tennis courts built, no Camelot created, and the Knights of the Round Table really don't need that kind of nation building work. Nation building is the work of the people that live there.
Mike: Mitchell in "Gone With The Wind" perpetuated the myth that the South was some sort of Camelot with cotillions. The reality was, and was still at the time of her writing, Sodom and Gomorrah with a chipped and peeling coat of watered down paint.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Aug 13, 2021 21:16:02 GMT
Ian, I think you are right that that they will let us get our people out, especially if we have troops there to protect them during an extraction. You are right as well about tribalism. Much like the tribes in our American west they generally only attack, armies, when they feel certain of success and disappear into the terrain when not. They either subjugate or drive out other tribes. The Sioux and Cheyenne did this to Kiowa(from the Black Hills all the way to nearly Texas), the Shoshone to west of the Big horn mountains, and the Crow to the Yellowstone and north. Our tribes certainly respected their women.
The troops sent in are currently back stopped by troops positioned in Kuwait and long distance air support.
Regards, Tom
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2021 22:46:38 GMT
I would hate to be the people trying to get on the last airplane out. I can't think of any reason why they shouldn't hound us on the way out. Just how will troops stationed in Kuwait help troops isolated in Afghanistan? Fly more an airdrop in? Just take a pleasant stroll through Iraq, Iran, and most of Afghanistan? Airplanes don't control the ground you are trying to traverse. I don't think we have Star Trek Troop Transporters. Perhaps if we drop gold on them they will rush for that and we can get on the airplanes. I am sounding overly pessimistic. Who knows, it might be easy?
I was a little worried when the DMAN pulled out of Iraq in 1991. We were left late with the band for security. We had no combat arms escort. The USAF ALOs were gone. I watched the 2nd Brigade drive by the main and the Combat Aviation Battalion fly over us.
We gave the Afghans (and Iraqi's) several victories. Like Hannibal, they didn't know how or didn't have the capability to use them.
Don't get involved in a land war in Asia. Don't get involved in a land war anywhere in a country without a seacoast. Don't get involved in a land war anywhere without reliable local allies. Example: England was a reliable local ally. Japan was willing to let us help in Korea, but they weren't an ally. Saudi Arabia was not our for Iraqi Freedom. Israel is not our ally, although we are theirs.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Aug 13, 2021 23:52:06 GMT
Being just a former enlisted bumpkin, I probably don't see the world the way you do. I for instance don't see air drops, maybe a C-17 or C-5A transports landing troops in Kabul. Both give a fine ride, not as goo as the C-141, but I never complained about the C-130, all of my tickets were priced right. The fuel and air cover for this junket will doubtless be costly. Kuwait is paying us back the favor again, he'll my youngest son was there in 2008&09, good people, so I hear. Plus a a leisurely 3hr and 10 min flight from Kuwait City to Kabul. I am certain you know how many troops and operators can rid each one of those birds. Never wasted my time on Star Wars.
Regards, Tom
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Aug 13, 2021 23:54:48 GMT
Now that I have heard about Star Wars and Hannibal, maybe I can get another opera lesson.
Regards, Tom
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2021 0:18:22 GMT
Now that I have heard about Star Wars and Hannibal, maybe I can get another opera lesson. Regards, Tom Starship Troopers by Robert Heinlein, not Star Wars. Ahd the book. Not the crappy movie.
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