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Post by Beth on Jul 26, 2015 22:40:55 GMT
This is a general overview of events via Wiki until a more thorough battle summary can be written The Fetterman Fight, also known as the Fetterman Massacre or Battle of the Hundred Slain, was a battle during Red Cloud's War on December 21, 1866, between the Lakota, Cheyenne, and Arapaho Indians and soldiers of the United States army. All 81 men under the command of Captain William J. Fetterman were killed by the Indians. It was, at the time, the worst military disaster ever suffered by the U.S. on the Great Plains. The battle led to an Indian victory and the withdrawal of the United States from the war. Wiki link |
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Post by Beth on Dec 21, 2015 20:35:50 GMT
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Dec 21, 2015 22:53:31 GMT
You can visit Fetterman site and Rosebud from the LBH, easily!
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Post by Beth on Dec 21, 2015 23:06:19 GMT
True.
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Post by BrevetorCoffin on Feb 8, 2016 14:01:31 GMT
I believe Fetterman once stated (paraphrased) 'Give me 80 men and I will ride through the whole Sioux (or perhaps he said 'Indian') Nation. He had one more man than deemed necessary and repeating rifles. Wasn't his command a 50-50 split between infantry and cavalry?
Best,
David
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Post by yanmacca on Feb 8, 2016 14:14:32 GMT
David, even worse I think that his command died in two locations, the cavalry detachment in one place and the infantry element in another, as the infantry couldn't keep pace with the mounted group. Also I think that the infantry had muzzle loading muskets which wouldn't help them much. I am not sure what arms the cavalry had, but there was a few civilians armed with repeaters and these gave a good account for themselves and got some extra special treatment off the Indians.
Yan.
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Post by quincannon on Feb 8, 2016 19:15:50 GMT
Muzzle loaders for the Infantry is correct. Not sure either about the mounted detachment. It was not until the later Wagon Box Fight where the breech loading Springfield came into play giving the hostiles a nasty surprise.
Fetterman was a horses ass, who disobeyed a direct order. He was only a mile or so from Fort Phil Kearny. The place he was fixed was ideal for a large scale ambush. Fields of fire were great though, but it did not make a heck of a lot of difference
That is the only battlefield I have ever visited where I got an immediate Oh s**t feeling wondering how he could have gotten himself into such a mess. .
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Post by yanmacca on Feb 8, 2016 19:41:39 GMT
Chuck the two civilian scouts (James Wheatley and Isaac Fisher) had Henry rifles and the cavalry detachment had Spencer carbines (which could hold seven rounds)
Yan.
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Post by BrevetorCoffin on Feb 8, 2016 20:35:49 GMT
David, even worse I think that his command died in two locations, the cavalry detachment in one place and the infantry element in another, as the infantry couldn't keep pace with the mounted group. Also I think that the infantry had muzzle loading muskets which wouldn't help them much. I am not sure what arms the cavalry had, but there was a few civilians armed with repeaters and these gave a good account for themselves and got some extra special treatment off the Indians. Yan. You are correct on the split force. Infantry was decimated first, cavalry retreated back toward Fetterman's now destroyed force once attacked. Quite a mess but will happen when 80 fights 1000+, split up with inadequate cover or firepower. Even this civilian can figure that one out. Lodge Trail Ridge was the proverbial line in the sand that Fetterman crossed, thus disobedience of order. Best, David |
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Post by BrevetorCoffin on Feb 8, 2016 20:43:11 GMT
Muzzle loaders for the Infantry is correct. Not sure either about the mounted detachment. It was not until the later Wagon Box Fight where the breech loading Springfield came into play giving the hostiles a nasty surprise. Fetterman was a horses ass, who disobeyed a direct order. He was only a mile or so from Fort Phil Kearny. The place he was fixed was ideal for a large scale ambush. Fields of fire were great though, but it did not make a heck of a lot of difference That is the only battlefield I have ever visited where I got an immediate Oh s**t feeling wondering how he could have gotten himself into such a mess. . Good to know on the muzzle loader. Never been to Fetterman battlefield but got a similar sensation at Gettysburg; specifically scanning the open field where Pickett's Charge took place. Entirely different scenario but when a commander's fightin' blood is up and pushes out reality very bad things can happen say I mastering the obvious. Best, David |
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Post by quincannon on Feb 8, 2016 21:17:14 GMT
David that whole series of episodes up there at FPK was not exactly the U S Army's finest hour.
The fort itself sits in a bowl reminding one of Dien Bien Phu.
The third day attack at Gettysburg though could have worked, if the Confederates had had decent field artillery, been well supplied with good ammunition, and had attacked much earlier in the day, say shortly after dawn. Not throwing stones at Alexander. He did the best he could with what he had. Lee was fully responsible for what happened, everything that happened.
People just don't realize how important the ability to adjust, lift, and shift artillery is, until they position the guns in a place where it cannot be done. That was the crux of the issue.
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Post by BrevetorCoffin on Feb 8, 2016 21:44:27 GMT
David that whole series of episodes up there at FPK was not exactly the U S Army's finest hour. The fort itself sits in a bowl reminding one of Dien Bien Phu. The third day attack at Gettysburg though could have worked, if the Confederates had had decent field artillery, been well supplied with good ammunition, and had attacked much earlier in the day, say shortly after dawn. Not throwing stones at Alexander. He did the best he could with what he had. Lee was fully responsible for what happened, everything that happened. People just don't realize how important the ability to adjust, lift, and shift artillery is, until they position the guns in a place where it cannot be done. That was the crux of the issue. Your knowledge is deeply appreciated. I will tend to fall back on lowest common denominator and keep things simple as my military experience is vicarious and knowledge that of an interested student. Gettysburg is one long string of 'what ifs'' from Ewell being more aggressive on Day 1 to sending the exhausted 15th Alabama to snag the Union left flank from the 20th Maine to Lee's pie in the sky decisions of Day 3. Toss in Longstreet's heel dragging and Confederate artillerymen tending to overshoot targets and I am surprised the defeat was not more devastating. Heck, Longstreet even tried to pass the buck to Alexander as to when the attack should commence. Roundabout way of saying thanks anf I enjoy discussing Gettysburg with you. |
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dave
Brigadier General
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Post by dave on Feb 8, 2016 21:53:06 GMT
David
Your belief regarding Lee's actions at Gettysburg was shared byShelby Foote:
“...And that was the mistake he made, the mistake of all mistakes....and there was scarcely a trained soldier who didn’t know it was a mistake at the time, except possibly Pickett himself...”
QC
You are quite correct regarding the lack of tubes and poor ammunition coupled with Alexander not having *control of the artillery led to failure. The inability to determine the effectiveness of the barrage kept the Confederates to make maximum use of their artillery. If the attack had taken place early in conjunction with Ewell's attack on the Federal right at Culp's Hill the chances of success would have increased.
Still, the rebels had to cross nearly a mile of open terrain under artillery fire at first then as they closed the Union lines the rifle fire was decimating. I honestly believed the charge was as futile as the incoming tide hitting the beach but receding because it dies not have the power and a large enough force to take and carry the territory.
Regards
Dave
General William Pendelton, Lee’s chief of artillery, removed caisson’s with reserves of ammunition to a safe distance to the rear and also took a section of brass Napoleons that Alexander intended to advance with the infantry as support. Both of these actions took place without Alexander's knowledge or approval. That must have been quite a surprise.
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Post by quincannon on Feb 8, 2016 22:32:41 GMT
David and Dave: If the Infantry is the Queen of Battle, Field Artillery is the King. The king is dethroned though if he does not put the balls where the queen both wants and needs them.
No one arm alone can carry the day, but rather the combination of arms acting in full concert with one another.
If you do not have an adequate plan for employing fires, you might as well go home, cause today ain't going to be your day.
I am not sure Pendleton was qualified to be Lee's latrine orderly, much less the ANV's chief of artillery. |
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dave
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,679
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Post by dave on Feb 8, 2016 23:52:07 GMT
Having unqualified people in control and command has been the bane of armies from the dawn of times. Lee inherited Pendelton and the old classmates kept the arrangement.
Regards
Dave
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